# Flying club using Pientopl for instruction?

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by ToddK, Jan 6, 2018.

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1. Jan 12, 2018

### billyvray

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I guess that would seem unscrupulous. But, I was thinking more along the lines of instruction over a few weeks or months.

Partial Short-term Intermittent Ownership

2. Jan 12, 2018

### Victor Bravo

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What I would be trying to accomplish is actually the opposite of what Billy Ray suggests... NOT making the FAA irritated and convinced we're trying to screw them. Not some sort of "loophole" that they scramble to close off before we get away with it.

3. Jan 12, 2018

### BBerson

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I keep trying to find all the FAR's that apply to operating for hire.
For example, I was looking at getting a Sport Pilot Instructor Rating. But I can't find any place in part 61 that allows charging for instruction as Sport Pilot Instructor.
A Standard aircraft CFI must have a Commercial.
But there is no Commercial for a Sport Pilot Instructor.
So can a Sport Pilot Instructor use a J-3 or Ercoupe under 1320 pounds that qualifies for Light Sport, and charge for the rental and dual instruction both?

Or, why can't Turd just charge $150 hr dual instruction fee in EA-B and no fee for rental. He isn't renting anything. Are the answers in an Advisory Circular? Case law? Or where? If the FAA succeeds in shutting down every opportunity to have instruction, who is being screwed? Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 4. Jan 12, 2018 ### TFF ### TFF #### Well-Known Member Joined: Apr 28, 2010 Messages: 11,421 Likes Received: 3,167 Location: Memphis, TN Pt 119 allows being payed for instruction. 91.319 also spills into the aircraft Operating Limitations carried in the airplane. http://bearhawktraining.com/loda.pdf is a Letter of deviation for a homebuilt for transition training. It does not allow primary training for hire. https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...s-of-deviation-authority-holders-loda-holders I believe a CFI can take pay teaching in a client's homebuilt. He cant be one of the owners unless he gets a LODA. Finding a CFI who will give instruction in a homebuilt will be hard. CFIs are generally on track for heavy flying and are not going to risk careers in a homebuilt. That is why finding someone already out playing with a homebuilt who is a CFI is desirable. 5. Jan 12, 2018 ### Turd Ferguson ### Turd Ferguson #### Well-Known Member Joined: Mar 14, 2008 Messages: 4,660 Likes Received: 1,621 Location: Upper midwest in a house Yes. I'd be using the plane for other than it's intended purpose. § 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations. (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate - (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; Purpose of an EAB certificate is to allow operation of a plane that was built for education/recreation. As you stated earlier, can buy a legacy LSA and start a flight training business. I think it would be hard to come up with a LSA eligible EAB suitable for training for a similar price. 6. Jan 12, 2018 ### BBerson ### BBerson #### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter Joined: Dec 16, 2007 Messages: 11,652 Likes Received: 2,185 Location: Port Townsend WA Here you said an instructor can be paid for his service as a CFI in any EA-B. But at what rate? Can an instructor set his instruction fee at$150 per hour?

7. Jan 12, 2018

### Dana

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According to mine, the purpose is "operating amateur built aircraft". The "education or recreation" part applies to building and obtaining the airworthiness certificate, not to how it's operated. That itself doesn't preclude instruction. However, FAR 91.319(a) says:
If all the other instructors in the area are charging \$40, it might be questioned. Most likely you'd get away with it... until there's an accident or incident, or somebody complains.

Dana

8. Jan 12, 2018

### Vision_2012

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I understand Bob Kelly's AviationNation mentors high school kids to build RV12s and help them get their Sport Pilot's licenses in the built plane. Powered by sponsors. If a sponsor doesn't take ownership of the finished RV12, they may sell it and start another. It may also become the asset of a flight club that provides instruction in the RV12. Since the question of the OP implied whether Piet's could be used for instruction, this program shows that it is done with RV12s.
https://www.aviationnationinc.org/

He sent me a "how to do it" synopsis of his program. His signature below.
...

Bob Kelly, Founder, Eagle's Nest Projects, Director, Virtual Flight Academy. Vice President, High School Aviation Association, Founder and President, AviationNation, Inc.

(812) 701-5454
avi.nation1@gmail.com

9. Jan 12, 2018

### Turd Ferguson

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I agree, training in the plane is not precluded, however, offering the plane to the general public for Part 61 flight instruction is outside the intended purpose, even if there is no specific charge for plane use.

10. Jan 12, 2018

### Victor Bravo

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Is basic PPL flight training not clearly an educational and recreational pursuit? If the FAA showed up and asked you why you had given instruction in the E-AB, and you said "the student wanted to learn how to fly for educational and recreational purposes", would the FAA have any legitimate reason to be upset?

Could they legitimately say "That's not what we meant when we issued those operating limitations!" ?

11. Jan 12, 2018

### Turd Ferguson

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He can charge whatever he likes.

12. Jan 12, 2018

### BoKu

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Or she.

13. Jan 12, 2018

### Turd Ferguson

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Sure flight training is and educational and recreational pursuit. If an instructor was offering flight training to the public in a homebuilt airplane, the feds would issue an order to cease and desist.

Like Dana said, the term "education or recreation" is used in the context of building, not operating.

14. Jan 12, 2018

### BBerson

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Are you saying " offering flight training to the public in a Homebuilt is prohibited"?

What does that mean? Does it mean advertising? Talking to people?

15. Jan 12, 2018

### Dana

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"Offering" is one thing. Actually taking money for the use of an experimental aircraft is a violation of 91.319(a)(2) unless you have a LODA.

Dana

16. Jan 12, 2018

### BBerson

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I didn't see anything about how they do flight instruction. If paid or not?

17. Jan 12, 2018

### BBerson

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Well, that was my understanding as I stated at the beginning of this thread. Then Turd said a LODA isn't needed. (Post 21) What difference does it matter who owns the aircraft? It says "no person may operate".
I am thoroughly confused until I can read the exact FAR or AC that explains what is or isn't considered instruction for compensation.

This is of great interest to me because I have an EA-B Avid Amphibian kit to finish that could be used for SportPilot instruction, both land or sea.
I suppose I could consider asking for a LODA. I would never choose to start a business that required bureaucratic permission that may or may not be granted or revoked anytime, if I needed guaranteed income. But just as a lark in retirement, it might work.

Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
18. Jan 12, 2018

### bmcj

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No... ‘she’ can only charge half of what ‘he’ charges.

Turd Ferguson likes this.
19. Jan 12, 2018

### BBerson

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Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
20. Jan 13, 2018

### Dana

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If you are a flight instructor instructing a student in an experimental that the student owns, you are not "operating and aircraft carrying persons or property for compensation or hire". You're not getting paid to carry persons or property, the student's doing that in his own airplane, you're just getting for instructing. If you (the instructor) owns the aircraft, then you're getting paid for the use of the aircraft to carry the student, as well as getting paid for instruction.

'quote]This is of great interest to me because I have an EA-B Avid Amphibian kit to finish that could be used for SportPilot instruction, both land or sea.
I suppose I could consider asking for a LODA. I would never choose to start a business that required bureaucratic permission that may or may not be granted or revoked anytime, if I needed guaranteed income. But just as a lark in retirement, it might work.[/QUOTE]

The FAA has made it clear that they will not issue LODAs for primary training in experimentals, but only for transition training when no standard certified aircraft is available or suitable. The only gray area is training students to fly an ultralight in an "ultralight like" experimental, since standard certified "ultralight like" aircraft are so rare. In that case one could make the case that it improves air safety, since the cost of training in the few "ultralight like" SLSAs would be so high that prospective students would instead choose to self train, with all the risks that involves. But there's little you could do in an Avid that you couldn't do in a Cub, and they're readily available, so forget about a LODA.

Dana