Flight school/club using Experimental aircraft

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by Hot Wings, Sep 19, 2016.

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  1. Sep 20, 2016 #21

    Topaz

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    All true. But when it's all you 'got, you take it. Learning to drive in a AMC Pacer :speechles beats not learning to drive. Which is the situation a lot of people are in right now, in terms of airplanes.
     
  2. Sep 20, 2016 #22

    Hot Wings

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    I remember my first flying lesson. My brother and I went out to the little airport to inquire about taking lessons. No one was around. Most of the hangars were open so we set about looking at all of the planes on the field. We started to speculate on which plane the owner of the field used for instruction and what kind of plane was the resident of the empty hangar. The only conclusion we came to was that all of them would be nice training aircraft, except that one ratty looking PA-12 setting in the rattiest hangar with no doors.

    We went back a few days later and met the field owner/instructor. Guess which plane he pulled out, and hand propped, for our first lesson? I have fond memories of that plane...

    The empty hangar turned out to be where he kept his Maule - the same one he flew back, years later, from a fishing trip in Canada on 9-12-2001 when he was in his mid 80's. Classic old school pilot/IA :ban:

    His son burned the hangars and sold the land for housing development :cry:
     
  3. Sep 20, 2016 #23

    Topaz

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    I don't generally use the kind of language that expresses my sentiment about that, and never online. :mad2:
     
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  4. Sep 20, 2016 #24

    Hot Wings

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    A little memento I collected from one of the burned hangars:

    Evans field.jpg
     
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  5. Sep 20, 2016 #25

    mcrae0104

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    Great suggestion. I would add the 650 also since 1) it avoids the aesthetic impediment some people might have and 2) it's already being used for training by some:

    [video=youtube;xsHjl_dUuRo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHjl_dUuRo[/video]
     
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  6. Sep 20, 2016 #26

    Dana

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    Naw, that's gotta take a second place to the AN-2.

    Not that the AN is exactly a good choice for training or club plane... :shock:

    Dana
     
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  7. Sep 20, 2016 #27

    gtae07

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    I'd be a little wary of using RVs for basic widespread training. If nothing else, I don't think the gear can't quite tolerate the abuse that student me dished out on the poor old 150s I trained in. The short-wing models also aren't as forgiving at low speeds (they can sink pretty good on the back side of the power curve); you can train around it but maybe it's not the best choice for brand new students. I do know a guy who did all his training in his dad's RV-9A but that's a little bit different case.

    I'd use the RVs as "advanced" models for student incentive rides, maybe "gentleman's aerobatics", and club members with a little experience.

    RVs aren't hard airplanes to fly and a low time pilot can learn to fly them safely. I was signed off and flying Dad's -6 with 80 hours. But it was a big adjustment for me when I started with 50 hours in 150's and trained by a time-building airline aspirant, especially for the first 10 hours or so of Dad's transition training program (which included not just flying the RV, but aerobatics, basic formation, spins, "aeronautical decision making", tailwheel training, and various other lessons).

    I still learn things when I go flying with Dad, or any of the other guys with lots of hours. I was especially lucky back in those days that they let me fly with them.
     
  8. Sep 20, 2016 #28

    bmcj

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    Flight instructor to student: "Ready for your first lesson? Rule #1, as we approach the plane, be sure to avert your eyes."
     
  9. Sep 20, 2016 #29

    BJC

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    Please tell me that N7832Z was retired from the GTFC before you got there.


    BJC
     
  10. Sep 20, 2016 #30

    Glider

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    A Jeep has a nice consistent look. A plane can be ugly and beautiful if a real talent imagined it. I can't think of a more beautiful ugly plane than a Wilga 35; while the 2000 is not in its league.

    It takes a really spectacular flyer to overcome harsh looks, or a spectacular price. I trained in a composite glider partially because it was pleasant looking. If all gliders were as attractive as a 2-33, I might never have started.
     
  11. Sep 20, 2016 #31

    gtae07

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    I have no idea--I trained at the flight school at FFC when I was in high school and Dad finished the RV two months into my freshman year at Tech. I had that to fly when I was home so I never joined the flying club up there.

    I do know that the 150 I flew most often met its end between a pair of trees three weeks after my checkride.

    Correction, more like five weeks... http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20020730X01257&ntsbno=ATL02LA145&akey=1
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
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  12. Sep 20, 2016 #32

    VFR-on-top

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    I know some of the other fellas touched on this, but is there something else that hasn't been said about 150s that students ought to know?
     
  13. Sep 20, 2016 #33

    TFF

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    I think he is talking about field altitude and density altitude. A 150 on a hot day would be very marginal at Denver altitudes, especially afternoon. What a C150 would need there is the 150 hp lycoming STC. Makes the 150 a little hot rod, as much as a 150 can be.
     
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  14. Sep 20, 2016 #34

    Hot Wings

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    Good feedback! Never flown an RV. How do they compare with the Grumman 'trainers'? If they weren't certified planes I probably would have bought at least one AA-1x with a big engine at some point in the past.

    Correct. Less pucker flying the 65hp Aeronca than a 150.

    As a side note - training at an airport with 2 mile long runways really sucks the time out of the instruction. Could do 3 touch and goes at the little dirt strip in the PA-12 in the time it takes to do one in a 172.
     
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  15. Sep 20, 2016 #35

    gtae07

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    No idea; never flown one. I've heard they're very broadly similar (similar "short fat wing" characteristics, the control feel is supposedly "sportier" than a Cessna/Piper and closer to an RV), though the RV will definitely have more power and more fuel. Grumman did have a reputation for stout airframes but I don't know how much of that carried over to the light airplane segment.


    Is it the runways or the instructor? Or the other students? If you get stuck behind a student who's been told to never turn till they reach pattern altitude, flies B-52 size patterns, and loooooooooooooong stabilized approaches, yeah it takes forever.
    On second read, I guess because it's a towered field and you have to deal with all that mess?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  16. Sep 20, 2016 #36

    gtae07

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    When I trained in 150s we flew at max gross on every dual flight (if not 30-40lb over, probably). The airplane was a dog--climb rates on the order of 250-300ft/min on a hot summer day (density altitude 3000ft or so). I basically flew that airplane like it had a binary throttle--either it was in full, or all the way at idle.
     
  17. Sep 20, 2016 #37

    Hot Wings

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    From a strictly safety point of view there would be nothing intrinsically wrong with shortening up the pattern. But we have a kind of 5 monkeys thing going. It's just the way it's always been done. The rule for training here seems to be pattern altitude or the end of the runway, which ever comes last. On a hot day in a 172 it's pretty much the same thing.

    Other students?!? Including commercial traffic there are probably less than 50 flights a day - on the busy days - including each touch and go as a flight.

    The customs agent is on call. It's not unusual to have a plane on the ramp for 2 hours waiting for him to show up.
     
  18. Sep 20, 2016 #38

    Victor Bravo

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    At the risk of other more experienced pilots correcting me, I have owned and flown both the RV-3 and the Grumman AA-1 "original Yankee" with the 150HP upgrade. Never flew an RV-6 or 7. I am NOT any sort of flight instructor or high time commercial/professional pilot.

    So in my opinion only, based on a reasonable amount of experience but not 5-10K hours...

    Mentioning the AA-1 series as a good option, in any discussion about training specifically in hot mountain conditions is silly. The later versions with the flat bottom wing are a little better, and the big engine makes it a lot safer, but you would still be starting out with the wrong airframe for this job.

    Mentioning the Cessna 150 in these conditions is a little less silly, but silly nonetheless. Like so many of us, I learned in the 150/152, but it was at sea level.

    Believe it or not, one of the better airplanes for this specific ab initio training mission would be the Taylorcraft F-19. Very capable of safe takeoff and climbing in Denver (or Leadville, for that matter). But still light enough so that students will learn, respect, and understand what the air does when it is flowing around mountains, and it will sure as hell teach a student when it is wiser to leave the airplane in the hangar. People don't ever learn that as well in a Cirrus or a 182.

    But this discussion thread is supposed to be about experimentals training in this environment. I completely stand by my original suggestion of the CH-750, and I will bet anyone on this forum a steak dinner that the 750, equipped with a stock 125HP Lycoming O-290, hands down would win any logically scored competition for an experimental airplane to be used for a basic flight trainer in Colorado conditions mentioned by the OP.

    Make that a steak dinner with all the fixin's, and a full pitcher of Golden, Colorado's finest.
     
  19. Sep 20, 2016 #39

    Topaz

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    Flown one of those! Private pilot training, solo-rated. Took it up (first time in the airplane, today not happy my instructor let me do this), out to the practice area to practice my power-off, power-on stalls.

    Little sucker bit me! Snapped off into a spin, if a C-150 can ever be said to "snap." I'm sure it was my hamfisted technique, plus more torque from the engine, but totally unexpected and we did ~270° of a full turn before I got it straightened out. Two things I am happy about my instructor, though: He taught me spin recovery, and he hammered "don't practice stalls without enough altitude to do a spin recovery" into my head. Saved me that day.

    Of the 150's I've flown, though, I came to like that one the best in the end.
     
  20. Sep 20, 2016 #40

    Hot Wings

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    Tend to agree about the AA-1s for training - thus the Italics and parenthesizes in the earlier post. Just trying to get a feel for the RV's. Probably need to harass one of the local RV owners into giving me a ride or 2.

    Also agree on the T-cart. If I didn't have the Aeronca available it would be my first choice.
     

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