Flight Instructor issues....

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by MadProfessor8138, Sep 15, 2019.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Sep 16, 2019 #61

    12notes

    12notes

    12notes

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    525
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I'll ask around if anyone knows a good CFI in that area. Are you flying out of I93 or EKX?
     
  2. Sep 16, 2019 #62

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,311
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    Think I read he said no carb heat. If that's a Lycoming like all those I'm familiar with I agree with that. Only in extreme conditions or with indications of carb ice. Small Continentals just the opposite. Religious use here
    But if it says it in the POH I'm not gonna argue with that. Maybe the lawyers wrote that
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
    Dana and bmcj like this.
  3. Sep 16, 2019 #63

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,311
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    It's like driving a Dodge
     
    bmcj likes this.
  4. Sep 16, 2019 #64

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    Or riding a moped
     
  5. Sep 17, 2019 #65

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    259
    Location:
    Ekron,Kentucky
    Yep,Lycoming...
    Yep,in the POH...
    Do I agree with it....nope.
    Because of the carb setup for the Lycoming it is not prone to icing.
    Will the gentleman that eventually puts me under the microscope care that we both know that the Lycoming probably wont ice up.......nope.
    He is going to know what my POH says and he's going to hold me to that standard during my check ride.

    If I'm wrong....somebody call me on this.

    Kevin
     
  6. Sep 17, 2019 #66

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,231
    Likes Received:
    6,121
    Location:
    USA.
    I have had carb ice with a Lyc. I use carb heat with a LYC the same as a Cont. Develop good habits.
     
    gtae07 likes this.
  7. Sep 17, 2019 #67

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,210
    Likes Received:
    2,407
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    It wouldn't hurt to use some carb heat then turn if off on final, to avoid a climb problem in the case of a sudden need to go around.
     
  8. Sep 17, 2019 #68

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,733
    Likes Received:
    3,322
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    POH is correct for all general pilots to follow. It’s not best for who has tested different things, but it is guaranteed to work if followed. Following instructions is just as important as being able to fly.

    You can carb ice anything. My boss has the carb thermometer and it’s crazy how much the temp drop is. 0-320. That’s the only gauge that’s interesting to watch. Your not loosing that much horsepower with heat on. I doubt you will ever detonate a O-235. Your not flying a turbo lance. If you want to break rules, I lean on takeoff. EGT just lifting off the cold peg will give great performance and CHT should not care. I would not do it in a check ride unless in Denver.

    You also have biannuals down the road ,so don’t get cocky with my way or highway because you will be the one on the highway with no one signing you off. A master can play the straight sheet music without error and they can also bring personal style if that is what is called for. You should be able to switch between the two any time. And explain why both are right.
     
    jedi likes this.
  9. Sep 17, 2019 #69

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,873
    Likes Received:
    5,486
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    My single "real"* experience of carb icing was in a Tomahawk. In the California springtime. Takeoff temps were about 75° F or so. Engine started running a little rough shortly after climb-out, and we started losing a little RPM. Instructor used it as a "teachable moment" and introduced me to the idea that any engine can get carb ice, even on a summer day. Pulled out the carb heat and, sure enough, in a few seconds, all was right with the world.

    If it's in the POH, do it. They generally know best.

    * Had a similar incident, solo, in a C-152 later, but so mild that wasn't really sure it was actually carb icing. Pulled the carb heat on for a little while anyway, because I was established at cruise, and "why not"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    jedi likes this.
  10. Sep 17, 2019 #70

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,231
    Likes Received:
    6,121
    Location:
    USA.
    Have had carb ice 4 times in my life. 3 with Cont and 1 with Lyc. On a trip and stopped at London, Ky for fuel and climbing back out in the Falconar F-12 with the Lyc ,going to 8.5K and going through scattered clouds at 5.5 K when I got carb ice. One time at 5.5K when the clouds was starting to form at that altitude . 2 times over a large electric power plant with the steam coming off the large cooling towers with no wind and I was at 9.5K. Same power plant, but different years.
     
    Topaz likes this.
  11. Sep 17, 2019 #71

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    259
    Location:
    Ekron,Kentucky
    TFF....I agree with your comment about not getting cocky but my position is that I should follow the guidelines laid out in the POH.
    I'm not saying that I totally agree with the POH personally but I'm trying to establish good habits while on my journey to earning my PPL.
    The whole idea is to follow the set guidelines that the FAA has established.
    And following the POH for the individual aircraft operation is one of them.
    The instructor thinks that the carb heat is not necessary and I agree with him to a certain extent,however,our opinions aren't going to matter when it comes time for me to take the check ride.
    The examiner is going to go by the POH for the aircraft.
    So,stopping actions now before they become habits that will get flagged on the check ride is probably a good goal.
    I do realize that you're on your own after you earn your PPL but for now I'm trying to play by all of the rules that will eventually be used to judge my abilities ...whether they make sense or not.

    Kevin
     
  12. Sep 17, 2019 #72

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    There is nothing in the POH that says "Don't use Carburetor heat"

    No examiner is going to give you a pink slip for using carb heat. He may bring it up for discussion where you can present your argument.
     
    bmcj, Topaz and jedi like this.
  13. Sep 17, 2019 #73

    PiperCruisin

    PiperCruisin

    PiperCruisin

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2017
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Idaho
    I've seen a few professional pilots (Air Force and astronaut types) jerking the controls around like they were having an epileptic seizure. I asked a test pilot about this and he called "sampling". Basically small, quick corrections that are constantly testing the edge of the aircraft response...or something along those lines.

    Not all fly that way. Now I don't feel bad that I do it with my feet on tow or in a tail dragger.
     
  14. Sep 17, 2019 #74

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,733
    Likes Received:
    3,322
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Ah.
    im Agreeing it should be used per the POH for the check ride. During a check ride, you can explain why you do something different over the POH but the answer can’t be because I want to do it that way. It better be a true better way over the POH that the Examiner believe you. I did it on my check ride, but he knew I knew my aircraft and it was diverting from the checklist for a hot start. Pretty minor diversion. It was not an emergency procedure or like.

    Last Thursday the airport had a plane stall spin on takeoff/ touch and go. No one was hurt. The instructor still believes he did not stall it. The student and he were only about 50 ft in the air so it never had the altitude to finish a break and do a spin. It cartwheeled to the side of the runway. Instructor is retired airline that just got his CFI signed the day before. He had little GA experience. He thought the plane would just climb like his jets did. It was the students C150. He did not follow the POH with airspeed, he flew how he expected it to act. Probably some configuration problems in there too.

    If you fly in accordance with the POH and something happens, your insurance will be much more happy. They see it as a manufacturer problem. You do something on your own, they have to decide your fate.
    As much as the FAA is something that has to be delt with, insurance sets the real flow.
     
    Pops likes this.
  15. Sep 17, 2019 #75

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,231
    Likes Received:
    6,121
    Location:
    USA.
    When landing a taildragger I see a lot of pilots wagging the rudder to extremes in both directions. Sort of reminds me of the pulse rudder RC models back in the 1950's or reminds me of a fish. Doing this you get an average of your input. Been flying taildraggers since day one in 1970 and I just watch for ANY slightest nose swing and keep it from swinging with just enough to do the job and not over control. Just small deliberate inputs as needed. I see pilots do the same thing with the stick in pitch on landing. Its like they are over controlling for what is needed and then trying to stop the over controlling with another over control in the opposite direction.

    I understand that in a more larger and slow responding aircraft. But not your typical quick handling homebuilt.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    BJC likes this.
  16. Sep 17, 2019 #76

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,231
    Likes Received:
    6,121
    Location:
    USA.
    I have seen that happen before. The reason trainers are a little under powered. Like paint, lots of power can cover a multitude of sins.
     
  17. Sep 17, 2019 #77

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    4,919
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    I’m with you 100% Pops, but I remember one instructor (not mine) that taught taildragger students to fast-pump the rudder full left and right as they landed. I suppose it was his way to keep their feet moving (instead of dead on the floor) and allow the corrections at a subconscious level. I think he even taught this in tricycle gear aircraft. I did not agree with his technique, but I have to admit that I never saw any mishaps, and his students went on to solo.

    Maybe it was one of his students that went on to break off the rudder of an airbus in Queens NY in 2001.
     
  18. Sep 17, 2019 #78

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,748
    Likes Received:
    6,530
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    I you try that technique in my airplane, you will wreck.


    BJC
     
    Pops and Rockiedog2 like this.
  19. Sep 17, 2019 #79

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,311
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    I was flying those things when that happened. Then they came out with the report and the fix was don't reverse the rudder input. Laughable. It definitely wasn't a pilot's airplane.
    We called it "the plane with the autoshearing tail"
     
    Pops and bmcj like this.

Share This Page



arrow_white