# Ferrying an EAB that has current airworthiness documentation and out of phase 1

### Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

#### Toobuilder

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
OP mentions "ferry" - which could infer that the airplane is not quite legal to fly. It's registered, its out of phase 1 (indicating the phase 1 logbook entry is there), but is it within the valid Condition Inspection period?

#### KeithO

##### Well-Known Member
SkyWalker is a 50 minute drive 1 way. Their Cessna 150 rate is $104/hr Cessna 172 is$139/hr. Tailwheel time is $139/hr Add$45/hr for the instructor

Currently my wife is a member of a flying club who have 2 C172s which are $100/hr. Her CFI lives some distance away but he had been commuting to the flying club to pay for his own time building. Recently she has been paying and he has been booking the time, a win for him. But at this cost she cant get enough time in per week/month. She has never had any exposure to aviation anytime in her life, nor to navigation, nor to charts, nor to instruments. She is going to take longer to get started than many because she has to grasp a whole lot of concepts she hs never dealt with before. She needs a lot more time in the cockpit and I have to come up with a way to make that possible. Should we ding these guys for false advertising? #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member I think "ferry" is a pretty generic term which at its most basic level suggests the transportation of an airplane by someone other than the owner. Like Cessnas from Kansas to dealers or to Europe. Or European planes from there over the Atlantic to the US. Then one can get into all sorts of technical situations regarding the movement of commercial airplanes from one place to another with some sort of airworthiness issue. That I think is what you were referring to. The "issue" with the transportation of an experimental is that there are all sorts of restrictions on activities involving payment to the pilot. Payment for training is allowed, with a LODA. Payment for ferrying / flying/movement from one place to another is the question ? OP mentions "ferry" - which could infer that the airplane is not quite legal to fly. It's registered, its out of phase 1 (indicating the phase 1 logbook entry is there), but is it within the valid Condition Inspection period? #### rv7charlie ##### Well-Known Member Supporting Member I'll bet that most of the people within 100 miles of you spend more than 50 minutes one way on their commute to work every day. I live next to my plane (fly maybe a couple of times a month, at most), but it's 25-45 minutes one way to virtually everything else (doctors, hospitals, shopping, cultural events, etc) humans in this day & age expect to access. 'Ya pays your money, and ya takes your choice.' I think I've done all I can; perhaps others will have some ideas. #### Manudubourg ##### Member …I believe there is one place where one can get this endorsement in Michigan and a second in Ohio. So, no, taildraggers are out. Randy Miller used to provide taildragger training in Colwater, MI. Don’t know if he is still there. not far from Jackson, you should be able to figure this out. Em #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member Charlie, its a pretty stupid and wasteful way to spend our lives, is it not ? I have deliberately arranged my life so that I do NOT have to commute for an hour, thus I'm not going to buy a tail wheel plane if it requires me to commute close to an hour one way to reach a CFI to give me training. And reduce the number of instructors by a factor of 10x or 20x in the process. #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member That is an hour an 10 min one way. 2hr 20 min commute Randy Miller used to provide taildragger training in Colwater, MI. Don’t know if he is still there. not far from Jackson, you should be able to figure this out. Em #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member There are taildraggers at my local Grass strip in Napoleon (3NP). But no cfi's, nor hangars. The field is now owned by Tecumseh Skydiving. #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member Well, to my disgust today I discover that the BK 1.3 had a damage history that had not been declared. Looks like a bent nose wheel strut, damaged lower cowling and destroyed the prop. I managed to find a posting on the BK Fliers facebook page from April 2021 that reads as follows: The prop has been replaced, the nose wheel strut rebuilt along with a new lower cowling. But whether the engine had been inspected for internal damage or not, who did the work and whether or not it was signed off by an A&P is all in question. I dont believe it has been flown since. One definitely has to kiss a lot of toads before finding the princess... #### Pops ##### Well-Known Member Supporting Member Prop strike, now there is the engine. I bought my SSSC back after a prop strike and other damage. The crankshaft was bent .006". Replaced crankshaft and prop hub. #### Victor Bravo ##### Well-Known Member Supporting Member I think "ferry" is a pretty generic term which at its most basic level suggests the transportation of an airplane by someone other than the owner. Like Cessnas from Kansas to dealers or to Europe. Or European planes from there over the Atlantic to the US. Then one can get into all sorts of technical situations regarding the movement of commercial airplanes from one place to another with some sort of airworthiness issue. That I think is what you were referring to. The "issue" with the transportation of an experimental is that there are all sorts of restrictions on activities involving payment to the pilot. Payment for training is allowed, with a LODA. Payment for ferrying / flying/movement from one place to another is the question ? A commercial flight is flying persons or cargo for hire. The aircraft itself is not cargo. So by that definition, an "aircraft delivery" is not a commercial operation. I believe private pilots were allowed to deliver brand new factory airplanes because of this, and were compensated.. #### wsimpso1 ##### Super Moderator Staff member Should we ding these guys for false advertising? I was just going to recommend Skywalker at KADG… EAA chapter at KJXN used to be really active, and probably knows a couple taildragger instructors about. Aviation Center at KARB. They have a Citabria for rent and training in it, so they must have taildragger instructors. Michigan Antique Airplane Association. They must have some CFI’s among them. Seriously, make some calls. With a two-seater (Taylorcraft, Champ, etc) you can actually save some bucks during primary while becoming better pilots. You are highly unlikely to do anything but cost yourself money during training by buying a single seater. Once you guys are licensed, the single seater is also unlikely to save you guys much unless you both really like flying alone… Billski Last edited: #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member There were some other shenanigans involved with this particular airplane, like the fact that Bruce had to fly off a 40 hr phase 1 period, then he flew it to Oshkosh 1 or 2 years and then did some more local flying. Hard to fit all of that into 44 hours, somehow I think 4 hours is not going to get you to Oshkosh and back a couple of times... maybe on the SR71, but nothing piston powered. So somehow when it was sold from Bruce's estate to Gary it got a new N number and the tach somehow got reset to a lower number. I thought that the fact that Bruce had flown it all over the place was a good thing, the airplane was proven out and reliable. Anyway, now the search starts again..... #### Turd Ferguson ##### Well-Known Member #### Marc Zeitlin ##### Exalted Grand Poobah A commercial flight is flying persons or cargo for hire. The aircraft itself is not cargo. So by that definition, an "aircraft delivery" is not a commercial operation. I believe private pilots were allowed to deliver brand new factory airplanes because of this, and were compensated.. Whether all this is true may be immaterial. The OP's question was whether he could pay someone to fly an EAB plane from one place to another place, after it has completed its Phase I period. The first question is what's allowed by the aircraft's Operating Limitations. Some/most EAB OL's state the following for Phase II, or something similar, lifted from one or another version of 8130.2<x>: No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of Paragraph 91.319(b) during phase I flight testing, and for recreation and education after meeting these requirements as stated in the program letter (required by paragraph 21.193) for this aircraft.​ So this pretty clearly states that if a person is flying the plane from one place to another, it must be for the purposes of "recreation and education". Unless the "ferry" pilot is willing to do so for his own recreation and education, payment for the service would SEEM to be prohibited. Some OL's may not have this particular prohibition, or may have wording that is not quite as restrictive. A reading of the OL's for the aircraft would answer this question. Interestingly enough, since the only requirement _IN_ Phase I (at least with the particular verbiage above) is that the plane be operated for the purpose of meeting 91.319(b), theoretically, with THOSE OL's, you could pay a commercial pilot to fly the Phase I test period. Which is clearly what many test pilots do. I don't know how those test pilots deal with flight testing after the Phase I signoff, since there is ever only ONE Phase I signoff, however many 91.319(b) re-compliance periods there might be. #### KeithO ##### Well-Known Member Marc, thanks for the on-topic post. I'm no longer buying this particular airplane, had it been a 2 seater that was out of phase 1, my wife could have flown along and called it training. But may have had to spend 2-3 weeks getting a LODA first. Given that it was a single seat there was no possibility for a training option. Folks, I have been a member of EAA chapter 304 which is located at KJXN. That chapter is not in a good way. They have been unable to fill several leadership positions. There are no member projects posted. I wrote the president to let him know about the Honda engine development project I was starting and I never got so much as a reply. Their website still states the start of the pandemic rules regarding masks and social distancing. The last newsletter posted was from September 2020. Back when I was attending the meetings more regularly, more than 10 years ago, it was more or less a social gathering for retired gentlemen. The facilities were only open during working hours when employed people like myself were at work. I attended for several years and the various projects seemed in close to the same state at the end as they were in the beginning. As old as some of the geezers were, I didnt get the impression any of them thought they were going to finish and fly their projects, they just liked spending time there tinkering on them and getting away from their wives... All the people seriously building were all doing so at home in their own shops. As I have said before, my wife is a member of the local flying club which has 60 members and 2 planes. One of the members is a young CFI who has a way to go in building his hours. The club is run by an A&P who works for the local FBO. He told us he was not aware of another CFI who was active in the area. Great lakes Air Ventures is a flight school that is based in Mason,MI and they have now started a small operation at KJXN but their C150 rental is$110/hr and instruction fees are $60/hr thus$170/hr for dual in a 150.

I'm going to keep looking. Obviously a 2 seater with a nosewheel is the best option.

#### Dillpickle

##### Well-Known Member
Charlie, its a pretty stupid and wasteful way to spend our lives, is it not ? I have deliberately arranged my life so that I do NOT have to commute for an hour, thus I'm not going to buy a tail wheel plane if it requires me to commute close to an hour one way to reach a CFI to give me training. And reduce the number of instructors by a factor of 10x or 20x in the process.
You seem to have all the answers figured out. It's pretty expensive to ignore the advice of guys with hundreds or thousands of hours, but my last word on the subject would be, if a 50 minute one way commute is too much of a sacrifice to make for the five or ten lessons you or your wife would need to solo a taildragger, to be well grounded in flying, it may not be the hobby for you.

#### Marc Zeitlin

##### Exalted Grand Poobah
...But may have had to spend 2-3 weeks getting a LODA first...
Getting a training LODA for an EAB aircraft takes about 20 minutes online. Just about the fastest thing the FAA does.

#### wsimpso1

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The good part is that's a Moody Larsen Luscombe with 150 hp.
My wife - who has taken some instruction in the bird - says you have a tiger by the tail when taking off in it.

#### Toobuilder

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
I think "ferry" is a pretty generic term which at its most basic level suggests the transportation of an airplane by someone other than the owner. Like Cessnas from Kansas to dealers or to Europe. Or European planes from there over the Atlantic to the US.

Then one can get into all sorts of technical situations regarding the movement of commercial airplanes from one place to another with some sort of airworthiness issue. That I think is what you were referring to.

The "issue" with the transportation of an experimental is that there are all sorts of restrictions on activities involving payment to the pilot. Payment for training is allowed, with a LODA. Payment for ferrying / flying/movement from one place to another is the question ?

I'm not being pedantic here. Is the airplane "in annual" or not? That is directly relevant to your question of legality of movement.

As to the rarity of tailwheel CFI's, can't help there. Not an issue in this area and I can't even begin to relate.

Last edited: