# Fauvel AV-36 and 361 project - comment page

### Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

#### Arfang

##### Well-Known Member
I found a picture in an old magazine that you might find interesting: a motorized AV-36 and one with a modified fuselage and canopy:

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Yes, I do find it interesting! Thanks for sharing.

I like the looks of the modified fuselage/canopy. Looks like an AV-45 done with flat wrap?

HBA Supporter
Log Member

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Holy Mackerel! You bought the rights to the AV-36???

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member

Gives me something to do - not that I need more projects.

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
So my question:
Would there be any reason to continue to offer original AV-36 wing plans with the narrow spar with thick spar caps?
Yes. The entire future of the AV-36 is in your hands now. Anyone that wants to build one has to go through you. Get the updated plans for that done, for two reasons:

1) It preserves that design and the ability for others to build one.

2) Until you've gone through converting all the plans for the AV-36, you don't know what small detail might be lurking that would help you come up with new derivatives that will be successful.

There is lots of fertile ground with the AV-36/361 for improved, more-modern implementations. But as with anything along these lines, you need to start with a good foundation. Get 'er done.

#### GeeBee3

For my $0.02 worth, I suggest that you make your first offering something that either is, or can be easily upgraded, to a self launch motorglider. Most new gliders sold today are motorgliders; that is what interests pilots. The fact that several AV361 have been successfully converted to powered flight is a very positive feature for this design. Maybe you could offer an 'addendum' to the AV361 plans for the motorglider variation; that way you could stay true to Fauvel's original work but still allow the builder to chose a more modern design. Of course, electric power for an AV361 is a viable option. I have sat in the cockpit of an AV361 and it is not as snug as one might expect for a glider designed in the 1960's. I am 5'-8" and 220 lbs (somewhat 'barrel' shaped) and fit quite comfortably. The shoulder room is good and the volume into the wing roots is handy for elbows and arms. Taller people can easily be accommodated by adjusting canopy height. GB3 #### Hot Wings ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter Log Member For my$0.02 worth, I suggest that you make your first offering something that either is, or can be easily upgraded, to a self launch motorglider.
That has been the plan from day one.

Once I have the original version fully in CAD, and the plans again available, I'll start building one of my own - with power. I intend to keep things as modular as possible. For example if someone starts building an AV-36 wing from plans they should be able to bolt it to fuselage of the powered version and have a safe usable motorglider. It obviously will no longer be aerobatic like the AV-36, but it should be practical option. What to use for power is still to be determined.

The re-lofted AV-361 fuselage is now 554mm (21.85") wide between the upper longerons. The original AV-36 is 19.25" and the original AV-361 is 20.25".

Plans will be in metric, with AN hardware/fasteners. Lots of little, non critical, things are getting changed by a milliliter or so with the intent that either metric or inch endearment is practical. For example if the original measurement is 18mm it will now be 17mm (3/4") or 19mm (7/8").

Keep going...

#### plncraze

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I was reading the ESA newsletter for March 1991 and it had an analysis of the Fauvel AV-36 airfoil by Jim Marske. Marske was using (I think) Airfoil II to study why the performance of the plane dropped and improved during slow flight as speed was increasing. He found the wing was a bit thick (17%) and the airflow separated then reattached as the plane sped up.

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Something I should have mentioned some time ago:

I have set up a GroupsIO group for flying wings and one for the Fauvel designs in particular. GroupIO look like a good replacement for the old Yahoo Groups.

This is a new and, until now, un-promoted group so it will take some time to develop. Hot everyone that might be interested in these planes is going to be a member of HBA (they should be ) This group can serve as a bridge to others with similar interest.

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
I was reading the ESA newsletter for March 1991 and it had an analysis of the Fauvel AV-36 airfoil by Jim Marske. Marske was using (I think) Airfoil II to study why the performance of the plane dropped and improved during slow flight as speed was increasing. He found the wing was a bit thick (17%) and the airflow separated then reattached as the plane sped up.
Thanks for the info. Any chance of a scan of the article, or a link? Do you know/remember if the airfoil was the Fauvel or the Wortmann? I presume that if it was an AV-36 it was the Fauvel?

#### Peter Mican

##### New Member
HBA Supporter
A composite version is in the future.
But the AV-361 and AV-45 incorporate changes that were found to improve the design. It seems to me it would be a good idea to take the best, and proven, parts of all of the versions?
Please do so, take the best from these designs and create a masterpiece ;-)
Especially integrating the motorizing option would be great and I guess most builders would go for it.

Composite construction would be a great option too, but you cannot do everything at once, try to get the wooden version ready first and we can start building this bird ;-)

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
One step at a time. I have an ethical problem with distributing something that I'm not 100% sure is gong to work as intended. For cosmetic changes and simple structural items that can be calculated with confidence I'm comfortable making the change.

For the version I intend to build for myself - one that incorporates power and the changes I think will bring the design into this century - will require building and testing a real plane. This is why I'm spending additional time trying to keep the major parts modular and interchangable.

#### Peter Mican

##### New Member
HBA Supporter
I am very keen to build this bird and hope that the plans will be available soon ...
I like to motorize too, in my area are no tow planes available.
Keep going, you do a great job...

#### plncraze

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
His wife burned everything! Ugh!!! That's where it all went.Years ago I went looking for Fauvel 2 seat motorglider plans and the emails and folks who said they had a set were dead. It was like Fauvel had been erased.
On behalf of the future thank you for picking up this project.

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
His wife burned everything! Ugh!!!
Among the Falconair paperwork there is a letter from one of Fauvel's friends or employees that stated this and implied that the motivation was because he died in an aircraft accident.

There may be more paperwork in the French and German CAA's certification files but I don't speak or read either so even finding out if there are copies, and if they would be willing to copy them, is more time and effort than it is worth - IMHO.

#### daniel leclere

##### Member
I'm impressed! I can make individual parts, and I can make something that looks like an outer mould line, and they're pretty good... But I've never figured out the process to take the OML and fill it with individual parts that I can then pull out and get drawings of.
That has been the plan from day one.

Once I have the original version fully in CAD, and the plans again available, I'll start building one of my own - with power. I intend to keep things as modular as possible. For example if someone starts building an AV-36 wing from plans they should be able to bolt it to fuselage of the powered version and have a safe usable motorglider. It obviously will no longer be aerobatic like the AV-36, but it should be practical option. What to use for power is still to be determined.

The re-lofted AV-361 fuselage is now 554mm (21.85") wide between the upper longerons. The original AV-36 is 19.25" and the original AV-361 is 20.25".

Plans will be in metric, with AN hardware/fasteners. Lots of little, non critical, things are getting changed by a milliliter or so with the intent that either metric or inch endearment is practical. For example if the original measurement is 18mm it will now be 17mm (3/4") or 19mm (7/8").
i have seen the jdc 03 pelican newer drawings on pinterest. they looked good! the pelican would fit nicely on an extended boat trailer endways , no need for folding wings. the whole thing can go home with you at the end of the day and not left at the airport at the mercy of the weather and herds of monkeys that get into everything.
you have taken on a huge project

#### Hot Wings

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
you have taken on a huge project
Much larger than I had anticipated!
I was going down a path closer to the Pelican/Vampyre but when the AV-36 became available it just seemed like a more logical project.

With the outer wings folded/removed the AV can be trailer-ed and stored is almost the same space as the Pelican.

#### plncraze

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
When you start to feel overwhelmed with the project re-read Jack Lambie's account of having one. He loved his.

2