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Saville

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Y’all are all talking about semantics. Whatever you enjoy or put up with is relative. Same with don’t want. If it’s a real Merlin or nothing, so be it. It a car motor makes you happy, so be it. No one is wrong here.
It's true that no one is wrong here - I agree with you.

However there are some aspects that can be discussed: both in comparisons and in what matters to people.

For example I've never heard any P-51 replica sound like a Merlin P-51 on the ground or in flight. However I personally wouldn't care about that aspect too much.

I bought a ride in a Collings P-51C. If I may digress for a moment, how that came about may be an interesting story to some people:

I was flying a Citabria out of Beverly practicing my acro. None the wiser that Collings was scheduled to visit Beverly. When I took off they weren't there. On my way back I call in to the tower and they tell me I'm number 2 behind the B-17.

Behind a B-17! Wow! How cool is that, I thought.

So I land and see the bunch of planes on the East side of the airport - I need to investigate this! So after securing the Citabria I go over there and there is the B-17, B-24, Stearman and P-51C. So cool - I've never been so close to those planes before so for me this was a treat. You could buy a ride in a P-51C back then for a half hour or an hour. The hour was a LOT of money.

I sat on the tarmac for about 10 minutes and thought it over. I concluded that yeah it was an outrageous amount of money but this might be my ONLY chance ever to fly the plane that I loved so much. Who knows what the future may bring? And this is one regret I do not want to have. I bought the hour ride in the P-51C.

I got the plane on climb out and up to the landing. I did some of my acro routine in that P-51C. I was in no way awed by the plane or in flying acro in it because a) I had been accumulating a lot of acro time and b) the experienced pilot was up front.
I was not frightened that this was the big ol' mean P-51 - maybe out of ignorance (I know there are regimes where it can bite you) but I was very confident. I felt like I knew what to do.

I think about that flight all the time and marvel at the fact that it all happened AFTER I got my PPL, after I flew a lot of hours formation and acro so I could really get something out of the flight. The timing in my life for that to happen was just perfect.


Ok so back to the topic:

The first aileron roll I did in the P-51 was highly instructive. I gave the usual force on the stick that I had given Super Decathons and Citabrias. I was surprised to find that that didn't even get the stick all the way over. I had to push...hard...to get the stick all the way over. So those two acro planes had lighter stick forces - as does my RV-8 - so to me, if a replica has lighter stick forces - i.e. different from the real P-51, then that's a plus for the replica.

It was a Summer day and it was extremely hot in the back seat. I think you may be over the radiator - or near it. And there was no way of cooling off. So that was uncomfortable. More modern replicas may be better in that regard so that your passenger when flying two-up is happier. On the other hand there is a lot more room in the back seat.

It was a C model so my visibility was limited. Much better in the front seat I'm sure. A replica D model would have better vis than the real C but the same as a real D.

It was loud but I have a good set of earphones and I didn't really notice anything unusually loud (maybe I was too excited). And maybe it's louder for the guy in front.

These days some replicas - like the Thunder Mustang, and maybe the S-51 (and maybe the Titan) - out perform the Real Thing at low altitudes (the alts I generally fly). Since they typically (not all) don't have superchargers the replicas begin to lose out as you go up. Even to equal the performance of the real thing at the altitudes I fly would be a plus for the replicas.

Looks sort of matter to me. The closer it looks to the real thing the better I like it. Can't explain why. So the Thunder Mustang and Stewart S-51 win in that regard. My grin would be wide if strapping on a Titan T-51 but much wider strapping on a Thunder Mustang or S-51. Widest, of course, were I to fly the front seat of the Real Thing.

I have read that the Thunder Mustang and Titan T-51 do not have some of the handling gotchas that the Real Thing has. And that the S-51 has similar low speed gotchas, but that none of the replicas will torque roll you into the dirt if you apply full power on go around. That's a plus for the replicas.

I often ask myself the question: "Would I feel like I was flying a Mustang if I flew the replicas?"

Here's the strange answer: The Stewart S-51 would make me feel very close to flying the real thing because it shares some of the gotchas. Strange, huh? The Thunder Mustang and Stewart both look very much like the Real Thing so they make me feel more like I'm flying a Mustang. The Thunder less than the S-51 for the reason above. The Titan less so because it's structure visually deviates here and there.

Sound doesn't enter into it much.

Strictly a personal take. I don't expect anyone to agree with me.
 

rv6ejguy

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The latter N73s are 6.7L and put out [email protected] and 531lb./[email protected] These are much more usable rpms for aviation applications.

You can't buy a crate BMW V-12 of course but as far as the the LS being far superior in output- nope. McLaren used this engine for many years in their supercars producing over 600hp so it can't be too bad.
 
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BJC

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And maybe it's louder for the guy in front.
Do you remember his name? My neighbor flew for Collins for many years.

Wrt heavy ailerons; same thing in many E-AB that use airfoils (carried through the aileron) with cusped lower surfaces.


BJC
 

Saville

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Do you remember his name? My neighbor flew for Collins for many years.

Wrt heavy ailerons; same thing in many E-AB that use airfoils (carried through the aileron) with cusped lower surfaces.


BJC

As best as I can make out in my log book his name was "Mark Heide" 2691901

And if this helps: the date was 8-19-2009

He was somewhat on the heavy side. Gray hair and gray moustache as I recall.
 

TXFlyGuy

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The simple fact that the LS3 series is available as a new off-the-shelf engine makes it far more desirable than an engine out of production. Sure, you can pick up a junk yard version if that is your thing, and Titan has done that.

This is why Titan switched from the Honda V6 to the SBC V8.

When asked about working with the BMW V12, Hutter Performance politely declined. A wise decision.

Per the former factory test pilot, the LS3 will fly circles around Sugar, the B model with the V12.

RPM usable range...I will cruise around 4000 to 4200 rpm. This keeps the prop tips in the sweet spot for best speed and efficiency. My reduction is 2.21 - 1.

If speed is not an issue and I'm just burning holes in the sky, any power setting around 3000 +/- rpm will work.

So how many of the BMW's are flying today? The above version specifically? And exactly what is the power when equipped with a short stack Mustang exhaust?
 

Saville

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The simple fact that the LS3 series is available as a new off-the-shelf engine makes it far more desirable than an engine out of production.

TFG,

If I bought an off the shelf LS3, what has to be done to make it ready to install in a T-51 and how much would that cost were I to ship the LS3 to a company an dpay to have it done?

Just curious.

I assume this includes PSRU, and electronic ignition. What else am I missing?

Thanks
 

TXFlyGuy

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A mechanical throttle, new oil pan, and new air intake. No big deal.
As to your other questions, it would be best to contact Titan Aircraft.


Just buy a V6 powered T-51 and do an LS3 upgrade.
 

jac

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So how many of the BMW's are flying today? The above version specifically? And exactly what is the power when equipped with a short stack Mustang exhaust?
That is a question that always comes up, It may not be an issue with a ~ 200 mph breeze past the stacks to create an extractor effect, even with car race headers on the LS on the dyno the exh exits into still air, so how much might you be losing there compared to them being fitted on the car in optimum position for exit point?
 

TXFlyGuy

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That is a question that always comes up, It may not be an issue with a ~ 200 mph breeze past the stacks to create an extractor effect, even with car race headers on the LS on the dyno the exh exits into still air, so how much might you be losing there compared to them being fitted on the car in optimum position for exit point?
Normal power loss is between 75 and 100 hp. That is why the info posted on my LS engine came straight from Hutter Performance, with the short stack exhaust installed.

Manufacturer published hp and torque data is meaningless in this application.
 
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raymondbird

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The latter N73s are 6.7L and put out [email protected] and 531lb./[email protected] These are much more usable rpms for aviation applications.

You can't buy a crate BMW V-12 of course but as far as the the LS being far superior in output- nope. McLaren used this engine for many years in their supercars producing over 600hp so it can't be too bad.
But don't forget all these latter BMW V12's have double overhead cam's. Much wider and heavier than an LS I'd bet.
 

rv6ejguy

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But don't forget all these latter BMW V12's have double overhead cam's. Much wider and heavier than an LS I'd bet.
Yup, probably so on the weight, width wise, maybe not since they are a 60 degree V. In any case, most folks are not going to fit the BMW in any P51 replica, just saying that an LS3 isn't superior in torque or hp, in stock form.
 

TXFlyGuy

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Yup, probably so on the weight, width wise, maybe not since they are a 60 degree V. In any case, most folks are not going to fit the BMW in any P51 replica, just saying that an LS3 isn't superior in torque or hp, in stock form.
I'm still waiting to see the real world numbers for the BMW, on a dyno with a Mustang style short stack exhaust. I posted the numbers for my LS376-495.

As stated, the published info by BMW, or anywhere online is not what you will get in an aircraft application.

All of my motor-head / gear-head friends in Texas will tell you the Chevy is a far better engine than the BMW. Former Titan employees will echo this sentiment. Forget horsepower, the V8 is hands down better.

And I'm not a GM fan...but as a former Corvette owner, and having a new C8 'Vette on order, I do like the SBC V8.
 
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TFF

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In the realm of these planes the Chevy will be better. Because of cubic inches. The BMW would be awesome if the cubic inch per cylinder would equal the Chevy. We need torque at the right RPM to sound right. Powering the plane is simple. To high or too low and the sound is wrong. Once the RPM is the same between a V8 and a V12, then you can nick pick. The C8 is awesome. I got to drive a friend’s last summer. Easiest car ever have ever driven. He passed at Christmas. We would meet up at Oshkosh without even trying to find each other.
 

rv6ejguy

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In the realm of these planes the Chevy will be better. Because of cubic inches. The BMW would be awesome if the cubic inch per cylinder would equal the Chevy. We need torque at the right RPM to sound right. Powering the plane is simple. To high or too low and the sound is wrong. Once the RPM is the same between a V8 and a V12, then you can nick pick.
The later V-12s are 6.7L and produce 100lb./ft. more peak torque than the LS3. The V12 produces 180 more lb./ft. at 3500 rpm. Great as the LS is for a 2 valve engine, they can't compete with modern 4 valve engines. Even the bigger LS7 doesn't come close at these rpms.

4 valves gives you more valve area and so does more cylinders for the same displacement. This equals more power and torque due to higher volumetric efficiency. The real Merlin was an ohc 4 valve engine for good reason..
 
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jac

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Guess I'm not most folks then! Biggest problem I have is living long enough, that is why its become a technical exercise to get the engine & redrive done & running rather than build the plane first. Cost of the engine was a no brainer.
 

TXFlyGuy

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With the V12 BMW engine being the hands down winner, why do we not see them flying? In replica Mustangs, or other replica Warbirds?

Show us an example currently flying in an airplane. Normally aspirated.
 
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jac

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The Vickers Vimy, so big you might have missed it?. WW1 Bomber Replica has made three ? trans oceanic flights, initial testing & first with two M73 BMW's, second with Big Block Chev's and last with Orenda BBC. BMW.s were removed due to Factory realising legal implications of what was essentially a large Homebuilt operating in the USA. How many Replica Warbirds with Auto engines have flown those sort of distances in one sortie ?
 

TXFlyGuy

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Regarding which is the superior engine for aviation applications, the numbers tell the story.

How many LS series engines are flying today, and how many BMW V12's are flying today?

Yes, this is a rhetorical question.
 
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