# experimental help

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#### TomcatDave

##### Member
hey guys.
obviously im new here with my second post so I will throw some background info out there if your interested.
I have always dreamed of flying since I was a kid and was never able to being that I grew up poor as hell and unable to go to college.
I joined the military at the age of 19 after watching top gun a few times (now i hate that movie)
I am an ex- navy airframer. worked on tomcats and superhornets.
only flight experience I got from the military was about 20 hours of simulator messing around with the officers
and I got a back seat ride in a tomcat shot off the catapult on the USS Enterprise...Needless to say a 10g pull from the Pilot screwing around with me made me go to sleep. HAHA!

The reason I have joined the forum is to get pointers and ideas from builders and pilots alike,.
Currently I am a student pilot and have only had a few hours with a cfi and never flown solo.
I plan on getting my private license as soon as time allows due to work taking my life away.

My goals are to get my PL and start building a plane.
But I need some project Ideas.

Generally speaking dollar signs matter the most to any build.
But lets face it. I am on a budget. Arent we all???:gig:
I am looking to get into a completed build for around $40k I am not worried on the amount of hours a certain build or kit takes. I am a perfectionist at airframes and love the art that is behind it. I also have about 9 months of power plant experience working on GE110's and other vehicle engines over a lifetime that I know my way around most motors. I have concerns towards finding a dependable aircraft that will allow me to do the things i want it to do. I am in search of the following stall speed 70 mph or less withstand 7 g's positive and negative its obvious i want to do some aerobatic stuff eventually so the more g's the better I want to be able to fly for 4 hours or more on a single sortie cruise speed does not matter to me at all.. I was figuring around 150 and up???(open to suggestions) im not into wood aircraft or bi planes. I would like the ability to keep it light. no vinyl epoxy......epoxy resin yes. carbons and composites yes. not to sure on the price or installation of BRM (or whatever you call them) parachute packs, but I am huge on safety. you cant put a price on your life. 2 seater or one doesnt really matter. I have already asked my wife about flying with me and she said "HELL NO" so ...hahahaha...two seater is optional. I prefer that the landing gear is fixed. shoot some ideas out there. Some planes i dislike are the rv-6 through rv-8, hummel, procomposite, ect. I have been checking out pusher planes but havent found one that I like. The ones I have found that I like are FAR FROM MY BUDGET....:dis: thanks guys, and thanks for reading! -Dave #### pwood66889 ##### Well-Known Member Welcome aboard, Dave. Where `bouts in Florida are you? I'm just north by west in Alabama. Have my own plane but it may not be what you want... - Not aerobatic + doesn't cost$40K.
Good to have you with us. I know I will have sheet metal questions, as will lots of folks here.
Percy

#### rdj

##### Well-Known Member
Welcome.

If you've gotten a ride in a Tomcat, you're already the envy of many of us here :wail:

Pretty much everyone here is going to advise you to get your PPL first before deciding on a plane. That's good advice. There's nothing like experience at the lower end of the flight envelope to help hone your vision of your dream plane.

Your stall speed is no problem. The FAA prefers 61 kts or less anyway. Most aerobatic kitplanes are spec'd for +6/-4g, although there are planes out there with higher limit loads. Range/duration is determined simply by the size of your gas tank divided by how thirsty your engine is at cruise RPM, plus 30 minutes reserve to keep the FAA happy. Four hours is tough for many aerobatic planes, which are typically designed for intense local flying and have larger engines and smaller gas tanks as a result. If you're not into biplanes that knocks out a number of candidates, as does your elimination of wood. With your current requirements I believe a tube and fabric plane is going to be the closest match. Look at something like a Rans S-9 or Midget Mustang. Also note that high cruise speed and intense aerobatics are typically contradictory requirements. A sleek, fast airplane will build up speed rapidly during a screwed-up aerobatic manuever, leading to an over-stressed airframe and an unpleasant end to the flight. (The Tomcat is an exception to this general rule, naturally, but comes with a rather high price tag.) That's one reason (among others) why so many of the aerobatic planes are biplanes.

Happy hunting

#### TomcatDave

##### Member
Hey man. I was born in ozark and lived in dothan till i moved up to iowa for awhile. Im in bama at least once a year visiting family. Thanks for the input guys. I def do want to get my ppl asap. But im too excited about a build. My father was an airframer for mcdonald douglas and boeing. He was laid off years ago and i want him to join me on this project so the suspense of aircraft choice is killing me. Haha!

#### TomcatDave

##### Member
Ohh btw im in lakeland florida

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
Well since you kicked out RV somethings, about the only all metal plane I can think of is the Midget Mustang II. You are not going to find a metal +/- 7G homebuilt that is rated to that sustained G; most smart designers will only admit to the minimum or if they say its stronger it does not have the aerodynamics to achieve it. 99% of pilots cant handle much negative Gs anyway. Most aerobatic airplanes at the homebuilders level are gong to be steel tube with wood wing like the DR 109 two seat version of the One Design DR 107 or Pitts. 4 hours and a true aerobatic plane are opposites too. Aerobatics are usually digested in 30-45 min blocks so most dont have fuel for more than a couple of hours. Fuel is weight and weight is the enemy of aerobatics. When I say aerobatics, I dont mean an occasional loop and roll, I mean ring it out. Most available real aerobatic planes are going to be biplanes at the lower prices because it is easy to make them strong or planes like the One design or Laser. If you can handle ugly there is the Sonex which is cheap to build and fly and not a bad design. But it is not a ring out aerobatic plane. Composite planes are way out of budget. There are many unfinished kits for sale at discount prices. If heavy aerobatics can take a back seat, you can pickup a RV or a Glassair cheap. The thing about RVs is that they may not be the best at one thing, but they are good at everything. That is why there are tons of them, they work.

#### Turd Ferguson

##### Well-Known Member
Every year Kitplanes magazine publishes a directory with most of the available designs.

After you get some flight experience, you may change your mind about what kind of plane you would want to build and own.

#### Vipor_GG

##### Well-Known Member
That's probably going to be a hard find with all your requirements.
+/- 7g? -3g is quite unpleasant and anything past +6 isn't what I'd call fun.
The Sonex is +6-3 rated the only others I know of with this rating are bi-planes. I don't know of anything rated higher than this anywhere close to your price range.

#### TomcatDave

##### Member
That's probably going to be a hard find with all your requirements.
+/- 7g? -3g is quite unpleasant and anything past +6 isn't what I'd call fun.
The Sonex is +6-3 rated the only others I know of with this rating are bi-planes. I don't know of anything rated higher than this anywhere close to your price range.
Thanks Vipor. I now know what I want. The Waiex with a Jabiru 3300 motor. **** thats a cheap builder. Right at 50k. And does just about everything I need it to. I think it looks awesome as well. Thanks again!

#### pwood66889

##### Well-Known Member
Gimme a buzz the next time you're in the neighborhood, Dave. Heck, I might even be flying by then!!!
At least we can get together for coffee. And I am looking at Sun N Fun next year.
Percy in SE Bama

#### johnnyd

##### Well-Known Member
Living in Lakeland is sure to get you a lot of "buddies" who want to visit (camp on your lawn)
you in April.:roll:

John

#### TomcatDave

##### Member
Hey percy. Will do.

Yeah sun n fun is awesome. Im good friends with the burton family that used to run it. Very cool people out here.

#### Vipor_GG

##### Well-Known Member
I stumbled across this one while researching VW conversions.
The Sonerai series planes are also +/-6G solo and +/-4G full gross.
I don't personally know anything about them other than what is on their site.
I do find their claim of $16k average cost to build a bit hard to believe, unless that is just the airframe. #### Battson ##### Well-Known Member It sounds like you want a$40k full-composite Lancair / Glasair / Furio etc...
You may need to think longer and harded about what you really need to do when you fly...

e.g. I would love a Nemesis NXT just to burn around at 280kts just for laughs, but I can't afford it. I especially can't afford it just for laughs. But that got old fast because in reality, I realised I get most enjoyment from a sight-seeing ride with friends, doing practical things - carrying stuff and going places. Camping etc. An occasional roll is more than enough to keep things exciting, and 140kts is plenty fast enough. That was me anyway, you will be different.

If you want to have a prop-driven aero-fighter, that's a good start.
Then think about your needs, your budget, and whether you are happy to settle for less.
There are no cheats in aviation - you always get what you pay for, and more performance (in any respect) costs more money. Both to own and operate.

As a rule - do not believe the kit manufacturer's website claims until verified. Some are honest, but most quote speeds at full power with biggest engine but fuel enconomy as minimum power with the smallest engine; and some straight-out bend the truth.... :speechles

#### mcrae0104

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Thanks Vipor. I now know what I want. The Waiex with a Jabiru 3300 motor. **** thats a cheap builder. Right at 50k. And does just about everything I need it to. I think it looks awesome as well. Thanks again!
Hard to go wrong there. Might not get a 4 hour sortie out of it, but you'll probably be ready for a break before then anyway. If you check out the sonextalk yahoo forum you can get lots of good info from some owners/builders. Good luck!

Andy

#### johnnyd

##### Well-Known Member
If you like metal, take a look at one of Molt Taylor's old creations.

Home

#### Nickathome

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks Vipor. I now know what I want. The Waiex with a Jabiru 3300 motor. **** thats a cheap builder. Right at 50k. And does just about everything I need it to. I think it looks awesome as well. Thanks again!
Can the Jabiru be fit into a Sonex Onex? Probably would be even cheaper than a Waiex. I've been to the Sonex plant, and although not a fan of their looks they do seem to be very well designed aircraft. I do like the Onex though. it does have a slightly more sporty look than both the sonex or Waiex.