# Experimental (ELSA / E-AB) No Longer Allowed for Flight Training??

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#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
Click on the post below or see post #340 for complete LODA.

Glasair Aviation Sportsman 2+2.

BJC
Yep! As suspected that is as clear as mud. Can you tell us what it says?

My student needs a sport pilot ASEL certificate. Can I fly his CH 601 EAB for that purpose if his LODA lists that aircraft similar to your Sportsman listed on your LODA.

My local FAA FSDO thinks he needs the pilot ASEL certificate in hand then I can fly with him for “aircraft specific” training in his CH 601. In other words, the ASEL training is general for all ASEL aircraft. That training is required in a standard type certificate aircraft before the specific CH 601 training can begin. He can not train for the ASEL certificate in his EAB aircraft!

What is your take on it?

“Section 91.319(h) to the extent necessary to receive or provide aircraft-specific training in an aircraft certificated in the experimental category in accordance with the limitations and provisions of this LODA.”

§91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—

(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and

(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and

(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.

(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—

(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or

(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.

(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.

(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has—

(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or

(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.

(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.

(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.

(j) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate under §61.113(i) of this chapter unless the aircraft is carrying not more than 6 occupants.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44881, July 27, 2004; Docket FAA-2016-9157, Amdt. 91-347, 82 FR 3167, Jan. 11, 2017]

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#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
Isn't that what he posted?

#### bifft

##### Well-Known Member
I spent about three minutes yesterday submitting a LODA request via email. Got it today.
Mine came about 1 hour after I sent the email. (to receive instruction in my RV-8A).

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
Three weeks and three phone calls to the FSDO. No LODA yet!
First call- got it no action taken yet.
Second call - Can’t find it.
Third call - No operations person today, Monday, call back on Tuesday or Thursday. Message left for a call back.

My request is for CFI not aircraft specific.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
I got my LODA for my EAB challenger 2, long wing. now if i could only find an instructor willing to fly in my aircraft, its amazing how many Private rated CFI's there are that have never sat their butts in anything other than GA aircraft.

i have contacted 5 FBO's in my immediate area and an have zero results, it should be mandatory for any CFI worth a darn to have some experience in any aircraft EAB or otherwise just below commercial building to have seat time to help all people not just the ones seeking Private. (note: closest Sport Aircraft for training is 2 1/2 hours away, oh an by the way is closed down until roughly September some time.

Robert Dingus (have plane cannot fly without the proper 90 day endorsements) unless i go roque of course harms us all.
Flight schools I have applied for as CFI prohibit me from from teaching in non flight school aircraft as restricted by their insurance carrier.

I continue to work as an independent CFI and as a volunteer.

I would fly with you and would come to your location if time and expenses made it reasonable. I am in shock by the stories I hear. Unbelievable! I do not feel comfortable posting them here.

I feel your pain! It hearts me. It hurts aviation and it hurts the country.

Good luck and may the force be with you.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
Three weeks and three phone calls to the FSDO. No LODA yet!
First call- got it no action taken yet.
Second call - Can’t find it.
Third call - No operations person today, Monday, call back on Tuesday or Thursday. Message left for a call back.

My request is for CFI not aircraft specific.
Finally got the LODA after 4 weeks and 4+ phone calls. Local FSDO had no clue. Emailed LODA came from Greensboro.

Next step is to decipher the referenced Federal Register of July 12, 2021 and try to answer the questions of page 12 post # 237 and this page (18) post # 341.

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#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
The question of post #314 was:

My student needs a sport pilot ASEL certificate. Can I fly his CH 601 EAB for that purpose if I have a LODA as a CFI or his LODA lists that aircraft similar to your Sportsman listed on your LODA.

Note: I have added bold and italic print to highlight significant wording. These comments are provided to clarify the LODA wording of:

A.The owner (or delegate) or authorized instructor listed at the bottom of this document isauthorized this Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA) in accordance with the provisions of Title14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Section 91.319(h) to the extent necessary to receive orprovide aircraft-specific training in an aircraft certificated in the experimental category inaccordance with the limitations and provisions of this LODA.

The authorizations granted by this LODA are limited in scope to the Notification of Policy for Flight Training in Certain Aircraft (published in the Federal Register on July 12, 2021).

The guidance of the Federal Register of July 12, 2021 says, among other things:

"FAA guidance incorrectly indicates that no LODA is necessary if the owner of an experimental aircraft provides compensation for flight training in the owner’s own aircraft and no compensation is provided for the use of the aircraft itself."

and

"for pilots who regularly fly these aircraft, the FAA has developed an interim process to issue LODAs to the owners of experimental aircraft and flight instructors that will permit flight training for compensation in experimental aircraft when no compensation is provided for the use of the aircraft."

and

"The FAA finds that, for owners of experimental aircraft seeking flight training in the aircraft they will regularly fly in the national airspace, the standard under § 91.319(h)(2) for granting a LODA has been met."

and

"This flight training is distinct from a situation where an aircraft with a special airworthiness certificate is ‘‘held out’’ broadly for training to individuals who pay for both the flight training and the use of an aircraft that they will not have further access to upon completion of LODA training. It is also distinct from flight training that can be accomplished effectively and safely in a standard category aircraft."

It also states that:

"The FAA generally limits LODAs to training that can only be accomplished in aircraft with experimental certificates and directs its inspectors that, with a few exceptions, LODAs should not be issued to permit flight training in experimental aircraft leading toward the issuance of a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege."

I believe the purpose of the Notification of Policy for Flight Training in Certain Aircraft (published in the Federal Register on July 12, 2021) is to set aside the above general limit of the above quote and allow training for those in posession of the LODA to conduct primary and specific flight training promoting the long standing FAA policy quoted below from the referenced guidance.

"The FAA has long emphasized the importance of pilots being trained and checked in the aircraft they will operate. Specifically, it is critical that pilots understand and are familiar with the particular systems, procedures, operating characteristics, and limitations of the aircraft they will operate."

It is my understanding that this guidance allows training towards a certificate or rating as well as checking for a certificate or rating and required flight reviews and currency/proficiency.

My opinion may not count for much but I am entitled to have one and that is it.

You are welcome to your opinion but I will proudly wear my tee shirt that says "Why would I want your opinion when I have one of my own!"

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#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I believe the purpose of the Notification of Policy for Flight Training in Certain Aircraft (published in the Federal Register on July 12, 2021) is to set aside the above general limit of the above quote and allow training for those in posession of the LODA to conduct primary and specific flight training promoting the long standing FAA policy quoted below from the referenced guidance.
this guidance allows training towards a certificate or rating as well as checking for a certificate or rating and required flight reviews and currency/proficiency.
And I believe that you are correct.

BJC

#### Hot Wings

##### Grumpy Cynic
HBA Supporter
Log Member
"This flight training is distinct from a situation where an aircraft with a special airworthiness certificate is ‘‘held out’’ broadly for training to individuals who pay for both the flight training and the use of an aircraft that they will not have further access to upon completion of LODA training.
The whole thing reads like typical lawyer "weasel speak" so it can later be interpreted as some bureaucrat/judge desires.
I do think I'd have to agree with your and BJCs assessment - while noting the bold above. With enough money access should be no problem.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
It is clear to me that the FAA - rightly, IMO - wanted to put an end to the selling of rides in Limited Category aircraft. The judge's ruling way over-stepped the focus of the prosecution, and created an unwanted problem for the FAA. The LODAs are a quick and easy fix. Complements to the FAA for that.

BJC

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
It is clear to me that the FAA - rightly, IMO - wanted to put an end to the selling of rides in Limited Category aircraft. The judge's ruling way over-stepped the focus of the prosecution, and created an unwanted problem for the FAA. The LODAs are a quick and easy fix. Complements to the FAA EAA and AOPA for that.

BJC
See edits above.

Not so quick or easy in my case but much better than in the past. I am not looking forward to the expiration in two years. All these LODAs will expire at the same time making a big workload for the FAA that they will be unprepaired to handle. Now is the time to call congressmen persons of congress and lobby for an automatic renewal.

To be effective we would need all HBAers, EAAers and AOPAers to call the same week. I will suggest the week after Thanksgiving as a possible time.

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#### Hawkzoo

##### New Member
HBA Supporter
Finally got the LODA after 4 weeks and 4+ phone calls. Local FSDO had no clue. Emailed LODA came from Greensboro.

Next step is to decipher the referenced Federal Register of July 12, 2021 and try to answer the questions of page 12 post # 237 and this page (18) post # 341.
Use email I got mine in 14 hours through email! Easy peasy!!!

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
Ok, on the surface it looks like i am dead, i have the EAB Challenger 2 long wing. Experimental Amateur Built.
I could not afford the 30,000 + dollar factory built model, to ensure 100% ability to train legally.

Robert
Now that I have my LODA would you like to schedule some training?

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
Just to clarify..
The annual exclusion for gifts is $11,000 (2004-2005),$12,000 (2006-2008), $13,000 (2009-2012) and$14,000 (2013-2017). In 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021, the annual exclusion is $15,000. Please PM me for my account details and SWIFT Code to receive your funds. And thanks in advance. Just found this while searching for the post with what information to email to apply for the LODA. Apparently some one lifted the Fed Ex envelope with the 150$100 bills. Please resend ASAP! I will schedule an instructional flight after the first of the year.

#### Mark Z

##### Well-Known Member
We may not understand why the government does the things that they do, but you can rest assured that they have a good reason for doing it that way.

#### Wanttaja

##### Well-Known Member
Been tempted to apply for a LODA for my Fly Baby. Just because.....

Ron Wanttaja

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
The whole thing reads like typical lawyer "weasel speak" so it can later be interpreted as some bureaucrat/judge desires.
I do think I'd have to agree with your and BJCs assessment - while noting the bold above. With enough money access should be no problem.
If I'm not mistaken, that doesn't mean access to that specific aircraft, but rather access to that type/model of aircraft. In other words, a person can't get training toward a certificate or rating in a center stick Zenith STOL if the only thing they'll fly after that is a Pipersport, and will likely never fly a STOL again. The only time the STOL would be appropriate for training that individual would be if that training isn't possible or practical in a standard category aircraft (also fairly vague). So it shouldn't be a money issue, or at least not much of one.

I wonder how this will play out with insurance. Most insurance companies want around five hours of dual in type with an instructor before they'll issue coverage, and possibly more for a low time/new pilot. You likely won't have coverage during training (maybe liability only), and possibly for some time after if training in type wasn't enough to satisfy the insurance gods. Count on high premiums/deductibles too.

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
We may not understand why the government does the things that they do, but you can rest assured that they have a good reason for doing it that way.
No they don't. I worked in government for many years, and I can guarantee you without reservation that they quite regularly do things without any semblance of reason whatsoever. No reason that makes any logical sense anyway.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
We may not understand why the government does the things that they do, but you can rest assured that they have a good reason for doing it that way.
[I'm speechless]

BJC

#### Mark Z

##### Well-Known Member
Being an hourly employee, I could have said management.