Engine options for my Lazair

[BJC]

New guy shows up on HBA.

Started my own thread

Welcome. You came here looking for comments. It will help if you tell us about your background and experience.

I am just spitballing here, comments are welcome.

Venerable member, who never has insulted another member in my time here, and who has lots of experience, offers a comment.

All of this depends on whether you want to fly at the least possible weight, or cost, or the highest reliability, or the least noise, or if you are trying to save the planet by using a combination of COAL powered electricity and child slave labor in Lithium mines.

If you want to enjoy flying your Lazair the soonest and with the greatest reliability, I'd have to say two of the smallest modern paramotor engines, selecting propellers to limit the RPM, will give you a fantastic combination of takeoff, reliability (less engine load) and fuel economy.

Comment taken differently than intended, and newbie, without seeking clarification, insults venerable member.

I like the idea of flying somewhere far from d-bags like Vic Bravo here and being able to fuel up via the sun for weeks at a time. Maybe the arctic in the summer, where the sun doesn't set and I can get (albeit low power) solar power all day and night. Effectively it is a douchebag avoidance device, but there is commercial potential in the natural resources sector since it can be "out in the field" indefinitely.

Venerable member reaches out with an explanation.

You incorrectly mistook a mildly smart-assed comment for a political comment. There was no political motivation or statement being made, and you're mistaken if you read politics into it.

Newbie at decision point. Apologize for insult, engage in civil conversation, and benefit from the vast experience here on HBA, continue with current attitude and not get any benefit from this forum, or go hide.

Over to you, Noeson.

Edit: Most of us here have stepped on our tongue a time or two, and lived to enjoy HBA.


BJC

 

[b7gwap]

Slightly off topic, but how long has the OP had his Lazair? And what is the best venue for used ultralights? Does everyone just watch barnstormers or is there somewhere else I can watch the market for used ultralights? I think the Lazair is a unique and neat little airplane. Eh I mean powered ultralight vehicle.

 

[paraplane]

b7gwap you can find plans to build a Lazair online. I think I have them downloaded but don't know where. I think all the templates for cutting wing ribs and such are there not certain as to the completeness of the plans mentioned but if you're at least a little handy and have a real desire for a Lazair it's possible to build one. I have seen them occasionally for auction on eBay. I'll leave a couple links to YouTube videos with examples of DIY metal fabrication/forming techniques that are easy and effective. One caveat if you follow through with fabricating Lazair parts I would like a set.

 

[blane.c]

These may work

Raket 120 Aero ES-RD

Raket 120 engine with electric start and reduction drive

www.radne.com

 

[Noeson]

Over to you, Noeson.

Happy with the several helpful posts that I received in this thread and I don't think more needs to be said

 

[Noeson]

Slightly off topic, but how long has the OP had his Lazair? And what is the best venue for used ultralights? Does everyone just watch barnstormers or is there somewhere else I can watch the market for used ultralights? I think the Lazair is a unique and neat little airplane. Eh I mean powered ultralight vehicle.

I bought mine from kijiji.ca and have seen a half dozen Lazairs on the market this year on upac.ca and barnstormers, $5K or so.

 

[RPM314]

... I am veering into weirdo rc airplane and electric territory

Hey, that's my neck of the woods. IDK if you're still considering electric but I wanted to chip in the options I was aware of.
The rotomax is the most economical in this power range but it's a bit heavier than necessary. In case you haven't come across them already, Hacker motors has offerings that save you 3lbs (between 2 motors) for an additional $2000, and Plettenberg can save you 4.5lbs for $1600. Maybe not worthwhile options, but in my defense that was never stipulated in the OP.

 

[b7gwap]

b7gwap you can find plans to build a Lazair online. I think I have them downloaded but don't know where. I think all the templates for cutting wing ribs and such are there not certain as to the completeness of the plans mentioned but if you're at least a little handy and have a real desire for a Lazair it's possible to build one. I have seen them occasionally for auction on eBay. I'll leave a couple links to YouTube videos with examples of DIY metal fabrication/forming techniques that are easy and effective. One caveat if you follow through with fabricating Lazair parts I would like a set.

I don’t believe the Lazair was ever a plans built aircraft, unfortunately. There are assembly manuals out there, but Dale Kramer did most of the fab for you back in the day. There was a guy doing a reboot a few years ago who bought the rights, tooling, etc, but I think he abandoned the project when BasicMed let him fly GA again. Shame. (That we don’t get new Lazairs, not that he gets to fly again )

 

[Jsample40]

Noeson;
One of the most common engines employed on the Lazairs were the KFM 107 25 hp twin cylinder, horizontally opposed 2 cycles, with electric start & alternator (w/optional reduction systems), all at 47 lbs. They can be run as direct drive or 2.1:1 reduction. I flew with one on my B-10 Mitchell Wing for 8 years with zero mechanical issues. A friend of mine was the head technical / mechanical guy for Lazair and build his own Lazair air park in North Carolina. If you are interested in acquiring two of these extraordinary power to weight ratio engines, let me know.
Jay Sample

 

[mullacharjak]

Isnt the Lazair derived from the Klaus hill super floater hang glider.The 32 foot span wing of that hang glider and Lazair look quite similiar in general construction the Lazair having an extra 4 feet added to the span.The Super floater plans can be accessed on the homebuilt hangliders facebook page.Most 100-200cc paramotor engines should be able to fly it but they are costly.The DLE 222 model engine at 1600$ would look like a good option or the Rotomotor 170cc 4 stroke at 2500$.

 

[Bille Floyd]

...

Edit: Most of us here have stepped on our tongue a time or two, and lived to enjoy HBA.


BJC

Think I will place this quote , above my desk ; then look at it, each
time i plan to hit , (Post reply) on HBA !!

@ the OP :

* Electric option here, appears to be a good one ; i have a package
price for both , with controller, batterys, prop, and charger :
HPD12 12kWc./15kWp. @ 3.75kg; 2180 1 / min
HPD16 16kWc./20kWp. @ 4.7 kg; 2280 1 / min
but the price was quoted near a year ago, so drop them
an E-mail and ask for a current price quote.

Produkte - Avionik - Geiger Engineering

www.geigerengineering.de

Their prices are WAY lower, than the $17K that was posted.

** RC gas 4-stroke ; this one might be an option with 25Hp, @ 26Lb :

Valach Motors VM R5-420 radial engine, 4.496,00 €

Valach Motors VM R5-420 Sensational smooth running and high torque Spontaneous throttle response and smooth mid-range transition Extremely low vibrati

toni-clark-shop.com

Bille

 

[Noeson]

Thanks for all suggestions! Bille - I received a Geiger price list back in August, a bit of sticker shock but top shelf quality...I vaguely recall Geiger developed a radial/electric hybrid and wish I had the $$$ for one (and a Dornier Libelle in which to put it). The Valach looks hard to beat for price/power/weight.

RPM - Rotomax was my first choice, even managed to find them in stock, might still get them but may have found a better one for comparable price.

Jsample40 - I didn't know about that one, I am interested, feel free to PM me about those engines.

mullacharjak - I was eyeing the 222s, I wonder if they would protrude too far but HP is about right so is price...

This looks promising: Motors - NeuMotors I spoke with the owner via phone, very experienced RC airplane chap, when I mentioned experimental aircraft he didn't flip, price well within budget, plenty of power, and they buy back damaged motors at 40% IIRC. If I were to buy today I'd go with them.

 

[Bille Floyd]

...

This looks promising: Motors - NeuMotors I spoke with the owner via phone, very experienced RC airplane chap, when I mentioned experimental aircraft he didn't flip, price well within budget, plenty of power, and they buy back damaged motors at 40% IIRC. If I were to buy today I'd go with them.

Prices are Good ; which motor, were you looking at ?

I was told that 60v (14s Lipo) and under , was more human friendly ; I
think that's why Geiger kept their aviation motor, in that
voltage range ?

Bille

 

[Noeson]

Someone here said 50v can kill a man and that got my attention so that's the number I kept in mind give or take...not sure yet what motor, I ran some numbers in the prop calculator (32x12 @5400RPM IIRC) with Mr. Neu but they came up null...

He offered to rewire a motor if necessary to get the right one (I think I found my guy).

8019 or thereabouts is my guess: NeuMotors 8000 Series BLDC Motors 7,500-45,000 watts - NeuMotors

Motor	RPMs per Volt (KV)	Rm (Ohms)	Io @ 10V	Torque Constant (mNm/A)	Torque Constant (inOz/A)	Max Volts	Max Amps
8019/150	150	0.024	1.40	63.789	9.033	53	281
8019/180	180	0.015	1.80	53.158	7.528	44	338

 

[proppastie]

Hope you let us know how it goes.

 

[Noeson]

Hope you let us know how it goes.

What I'm working with:

 

[Bille Floyd]

Someone here said 50v can kill a man and that got my attention so that's the number I kept in mind give or take...not sure yet what motor, I ran some numbers in the prop calculator (32x12 @5400RPM IIRC) with Mr. Neu but they came up null...

He offered to rewire a motor if necessary to get the right one (I think I found my guy).

8019 or thereabouts is my guess: NeuMotors 8000 Series BLDC Motors 7,500-45,000 watts - NeuMotors

Motor	RPMs per Volt (KV)	Rm (Ohms)	Io @ 10V	Torque Constant (mNm/A)	Torque Constant (inOz/A)	Max Volts	Max Amps
8019/150	150	0.024	1.40	63.789	9.033	53	281
8019/180	180	0.015	1.80	53.158	7.528	44

The guys who do the E-bikes , said 60v was the threshold ; there may
be actual laws in Europe, that govern such ? That would be
(14s LIPO) or 58.8v full charge.

Is a 24s battery dangerous? - Endless Sphere

Anyway --- i wouldn't consider a prop , smaller than 130cm ; 140cm
would be more efficient. That is the usual size prop for most ParaMotors
i think ? 130cm size prop, is what the factory told me to get, for
the Polini Thor 202 ; and 140cm was recommended to me for the 20kw
HPD16 16kWc./20kW, 2280 rpm, 1 / min .


Bille

 

[Bille Floyd]

The guys who do the E-bikes , said 60v was the threshold ; there may
be actual laws in Europe, that govern such ? That would be
(14s LIPO) or 58.8v full charge.
...


Bille

I was wrong ; it was Brazil, that had the directive ; 25v-ac
or 60v-Dc :
from -- Extra-low voltage - Wikipedia

BrazilEdit
In Brazil, ELV (Extra-baixa tensão or EBT in Portuguese) is officially defined in Regulatory Standard no. 10 from the Brazilian Ministry of Labor and Employment as any voltage "not exceeding 50 volts a.c. or 120 volts d.c.".[5]Although that standard defines safety rules for electricity, the Regulatory Standard no. 12 requires an even lower voltage for start and stop devices on machines and equipment made from March 2012 and on, stating it shall not exceed 25 volts a.c. or 60 volts d.c.[6]

 

[Armilite]

Started my own thread on affordable engines for Part 103 ultralights because I am veering into weirdo rc airplane and electric territory:

I have a 142 lb Lazair with 2 x 5.5 HP engines and a 400 lb MTOW and I am not eager to fly it until I get more power. The only good reason for me to go with a gas engine is range, but with a 5 gallon max tank for ultralights that advantage is limited. I can see why a handier person would want to go with gasoline but for me and my limited skills it's a rabbit hole. For a LSA it's an intriguing solution though!

Saito engines run about $120 to $150 per HP and per lb, including mount and muffler.

Saito Engines FG-90R3 90cc 3-Cylinder Gasoline Radial Engine | Horizon Hobby

The FG-90R3 90cc 3-Cylinder Gasoline Radial Engine by Saito Engines is a quality built remote controlled airplane accessory. See all our RC product options online at Horizon Hobby!

www.horizonhobby.com

or the twin 100cc:

Saito Engines 100cc 4-Stroke Twin-Cylinder FG-100TS Gasoline Engine | Horizon Hobby

The 100cc 4-Stroke Twin-Cylinder FG-100TS Gasoline Engine by Saito Engines is a quality built remote controlled airplane accessory. See all our RC product options online at Horizon Hobby!

www.horizonhobby.com

An ultralight would need 2+ of these engines, but that's a feature and not a bug when flying experimental aircraft, no?

But for my plane: Roto Max 150s looks like my best option at the moment and that leaves 100+ lbs of useful load for a 22 lb chute and 8-10kwh of batteries. My Lazair is lighter than the model Dale Kramer electrified and I weigh 150 lbs give or take a cheeseburger, so I am maybe 100 lbs ahead of e-Lazair already. A 4kw cruise seems doable.

In the rc airplane world guys are getting a legit kw per 50 square feet of solar cells, Lazair wing area = 144 sq ft., plus tail assembly Why leave up to 3kw on the table? Solar should be part of the drivetrain solution. If I could get half of the 4kw I need to cruise from solar then my 10 kwh battery pack is going to give me some pretty good range!

Back in the day Dornier used 2, 3, 4, or even 12 engines because he was designing with unproven emerging technologies and scarce resources and I think that applies today with electric. An array of motors may be preferable in development to an all eggs in basket single motor.

The best off the shelf complete drivetrain I am aware of is Chip Irwin's for the Zigolo but it costs $17,500:

Zigolo – Aeromarine-LSA

• Battery Packs: 2 x 3.1 kwh 14S/20P/15KG, 60Ah
• Motor: 20kW continuous, 28 kW peak, low noise, low RPM

I am just spitballing here, comments are welcome.

================================

As you said, it Flys on (2) 5.5hp Engine = 11hp, but Marginally, so it was updated to (2) Rotax 185's they say 9.4hp@5000rpm each = 18.8hp and Still many people weren't Happy, but Skidoo's/Rotax's Engine Site says 8.0hp@5000rpm = 16hp. Then some were upgraded to Solo 210's, 15hp each = 30hp!

You say, "142 lb Lazair with 2 x 5.5 HP engines and a 400 lb MTOW. With the Rotax 185's it had: Ultraflight Lazair - Wikipedia
MTOW: 450 lb (204 kg)
Empty weight: 210 lb (95 kg)
Useful load: 240 lb (109 kg)

I don't know where you are, but in the USA, if you go Electric, the Batteries are part of the 254 lbs. As Dale found out, only using a combined 22hp Electric Motors left him with only about 30-40min of Flight compared to (2) Hours with the 185's with 5 Gallons.

(2) Honda/Clone GX200's or Preditor 212cc Engines upgraded about ($700 ea) for each to make 15hp@5000rpm and ACE Belt Drives($669ea) is your cheapest Setup that meets your Mission. Skidoo 250 Type 253 Single Cylinder Engines go cheap and make 22hp@6000rpm with a Muffler that has a Pro3 Case.

Lazair with Honda/Clone GX200's.

Skidoo/Rotax 250 Type 253 go for $250 Complete and make 22hp@6000rpm with a Muffler. Make a Simple Belt Drive like the guy did in the Video above for the GX200's. Notice it has a more HD PTO like the 277UL vs the 185UL.

 

[Armilite]

Rotax 185 Spec's off Rotax's website. 6kw = 8.046133 hp at 5000rpm. These Engines used a Low I think 8.0cr and Small Carb.