Engine failure turn back.

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BJC

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or private one. If you turn into the crosswind, and that crosswind component is strong enough, that turn may well be barely over 180°, and even if it is quite low, it will still reduce the size of the turn.
Yup, see post #48:
The 60 degree bank that I use also includes significant nose down attitude. It is useful when departing on runway heading. Where it is acceptable, I turn about 15 degrees downwind just after liftoff.

We have discussed this at length in another thread; full details of various techniques can be read there.

Key message: practice extensively at altitude, then work down lower. Seeing nothing but ground in the windshield in the turn can be disconcerting unless you have experience at low level aerobatics.

BJC
 

BJC

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I'm not saying they can't be smart, but for many of them their intelligence is confined to a highly limited area.
They are just like everyone else. I have known some who were outstanding at developing real world solutions to major problems, and I have known some who needed help tucking in their shirt. (True statement, not an exaggeration.)

BJC
 

Rhino

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This still sums it up for me better than anything else.

The moment the engine quits the insurance company now owns the plane, worry about yourself.
If you're figuring out exactly how close you can come, you're looking at it the wrong way. If there's a comfortable margin, sure, go right ahead and make the turn. But if you have to split hairs to see how close you are, you've got your priorities really mixed up.
 

filhere

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Find a quiet airfield and try it out. Try landing straight ahead from different heights. Then try turning back at lots of different heights and angles of bank. For my aircraft at my airfield in zero wind, I can get back down to runway ahead from 200 feet with flaps and slip and turn back from anything above 300 feet with 45 AOB. To cater for between 200-300 feet I drift off the centre line (and with any cross wind) on take off so that it’s a 180 deg turn back, not 270 then 90.
 

TFF

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What size is the airfield? I once took off on the apron because I had no idea what a SAC size runway looked like from the cockpit. You got 7000 more feet once you get to pattern altitude. My field is 3800 ft an a friend did not like the emergency options. He probably did a dozen flights testing. Moved his planes to where the tallest thing is a bean plant. He survived people shooting at his F4 and early overnight freight flyer. He had given up cross countries.

Another friend borrowed a fuel tank from the Grumman guy that had the engine out that talks about it on YouTube. He made the field but stalled it high. He seems happy with his decision.

It’s called practice. My helicopter instructor teaches takeoff autorotations. Not in the testing requirements but just like spins, it can happen. Same deal, lackadaisical awareness on takeoff means you are not calculating scenarios until you are high enough that the catch all one is left. I definitely don’t want to do a real one, but he has.
 

PagoBay

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There is another way to check the performance of your aircraft for an engine out turnaround. First understand we are not talking about 180 degree turn which results in you being well offset from the centerline of the runway. To get lined up with the centerline requires two more 90 degree turns. So we are talking about a 360 degree turn. Take someone with you and go up to a good safe altitude. On my test flights I went up to 6000 feet. I picked an airspeed that I wanted to do the test at, best glide plus a little, went to idle power and let the aircraft stabilize for a thousand feet and started a 360 degree turn at 5000 with a selected bank angle. My passenger noted the altitude at the completion of the 360 degree turn. I repeated the whole procedure for 20, 30, 45, and 60 degree bank angles. My numbers altitude loss for my RV6 at 90 kts were 1100 ft, 1000ft, 900 ft, 750ft. As a side note, I could not hold a steady airspeed at near 60 degree bank. I ended up around 110 kts. My self imposed minimum turnaround altitude is 1000 ft.
Isn't this what the Takeoff Advisor program is providing detailed guidance on and requesting data from pilots to bring this program to everyone?
Post #121 for link to details and EAA Webinar.
 

tallank

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Assuming we are past the departure threshold when the engine quits, we need an approx 225 degree turn (to a teardrop) then an approx 45 degree opposite direction turn to the runway heading, right? So, less than 300 degrees in the turn (more if you start closer to the runway, less if you are farther away).

Your tests told you how much altitude you'd lose in the turn, but will you be over the pavement, or within the airfield boundaries, at that point based on your typical distance from the runway when you reach your min turn around altitude of 1000' during a typical climbout at your airfield?
On your comment about two 45 degree turns is correct but after your first 45 degree turn you have to fly straight for awhile before starting you the next 45 degree turn. To your second comment it all depends on your climb rate and how far you are from the airport when you reach 1000 ft. Most private aircraft do not have a climb rate that will enable them to even get back to the airport if they have an engine failure on takeoff.
 

atypicalguy

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Have to agree. Had some PhDs assist with the engineering on a plane I flew on in the Air Force. I assume they were stellar in that tiny little niche of the world in which they worked, but they were absolutely clueless in everything else, and I mean everything. One of them couldn't even figure out how to use an aircraft toilet. Several similar experiences have followed over the years that reaffirm that observation. I'm not saying they can't be smart, but for many of them their intelligence is confined to a highly limited area. For some of them though, they're just idiots who were good at studying and taking tests. The term PhDuh has very significant meaning for me.
There will be a turning angle associated with minimum altitude loss. I don't think any of us would argue that all turn angles are the same. So the question is which one works best for you, your plane and your skills. Just because the guy has a PhD doesnt mean he is wrong, either.
 

Pilot-34

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Another thing that will help you reduce the number of degrees you must turn is the fact that there is no law requiring perfect alignment with the centerline.
A landing at an angle across the runway combined with a curving path of run out can make a significant difference.
 

gtae07

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To the poster of post #108...Please go to a club glider field , and go for 2 flights , one being a standard , demo flight , and one being a simulated rope break . One reason for doing is to meet some nice people at the glider club. And the other is to learn something. About doing a turn back to the runway, after take off. The main thing you will learn ,if a turn back is a safe, thing to do. If you do the turn back correctly....
Having just gotten a glider add-on rating last week... the rope-break scenario is very interesting. Even in a modestly-performing trainer, a rope break at 300 feet or so sounds a lot scarier than it is. Still wouldn't be wanting to do it in the RV... though one day I'll definitely go up and do it at a safe altitude.
 

Rhino

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...Just because the guy has a PhD doesnt mean he is wrong, either.
I never said it did. The point was that a PhD wasn't required to answer the question, nor did it necessarily increase his chances of being right, most especially if his PhD isn't in aeronautics.
 

atypicalguy

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That’s all fine but if you do that on purpose by yourself one day after washing and waxing your plane you’re going to get a whole different answer than when that thing is loaded past gross with a moose coming out of a mud field with splatters all over it.
Ok so do it both ways and post the result. I mean knock yourself out. It has never been any easier to measure.
 

atypicalguy

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This still sums it up for me better than anything else.


If you're figuring out exactly how close you can come, you're looking at it the wrong way. If there's a comfortable margin, sure, go right ahead and make the turn. But if you have to split hairs to see how close you are, you've got your priorities really mixed up.
I don't see how it is mixing anything up to know as much as you can about the power off performance of your airplane. Lots of us fly in places where straight ahead is in the ocean and left or right are nothing but busy city streets and buildings. If turning around is going to put me into someone's house, rather than the airfield, then I will chance it on a road or the beach. If I know I can make it back, that is what I am doing.
 

Rhino

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I don't see how it is mixing anything up to know as much as you can about the power off performance of your airplane.
I don't either, because that's not what I said. I wasn't saying you shouldn't know the performance of your plane. Quite the contrary. What I was saying was if you instantly turn on analysis mode when the engine quits, calculating formulas for altitude, turn angles, current weight, winds, density altitude, current mortgage rates, or whatever, to determine if you can make those last few feet to clear the trees next to the airport, you have your priorities screwed up. You can or you can't. And you'll know if you can or you can't if you practiced and are familiar with the very power off performance of your plane you cite. Trying to analyze it in detail and split hairs during an emergency is an unnecessary risk of your life and possibly the lives of others on the ground. Your knowledge of your plane and it's capabilities should give you a comfortable margin to work with. Trying to cut it razor thin is stupid. Your priority should be saving your life, not the plane.

Lots of us fly in places where straight ahead is in the ocean and left or right are nothing but busy city streets and buildings. If turning around is going to put me into someone's house, rather than the airfield, then I will chance it on a road or the beach. If I know I can make it back, that is what I am doing.
Great. Me too. But I'm not going to waste time and effort pondering if a 2 degree change in my bank angle will get me the last few feet I need to get where I need to go. Insurance will cover my plane. I'm going to cover my butt.
 

Pilot-34

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Ok so do it both ways and post the result. I mean knock yourself out. It has never been any easier to measure.
I understand but it’ll make you feel better and safer and more secure to measure it.
People want to know exactly what will happen down to the Nats eyelash.
But my point is measuring it is pointless.
You’re never gonna have it right down to the foot
What you can do is educate your butt.
Spend time in your plane looking for maximum performance.
Learn to feel the last 1/16 of a mph before the spin.
 

Pilot-34

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Let’s face it you’re gonna be the first one to the site of the crash but who do you want to be second?
How do you factor in the safety factor of the fire and rescue crews being able to easily find and access you ?
Of a tower getting them moving towards you before you ever impact the ground ?

Something else to keep in mind.
If I attempt to return to the airport and the very best I can do is only 45 ,140 or 90°And I wind up landing across a runway I’ve still got perhaps 200 feet where I can expend a lot of initial energy on the pavement,Maybe another hundred or 200 feet of grass to expend some energy on before I more slowly come to the bad stuff.
In most of the planes we talk about here taking 400 feet of energy out of our landing is significant.
Heck there are lots of times I can land ACROSS the runways I use.
 

jedi

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If you do not want to land straight ahead and to the right or left looks better and you think there may be a chance to get back to the field if/when the engine quits then it is probably a good time to turn to the cross wind leg. Then you only need a 120 degree turn to get back to the runway.

I did that last year when a wood prop came apart and it worked out swell.
 

BJC

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If you do not want to land straight ahead and to the right or left looks better and you think there may be a chance to get back to the field if/when the engine quits then it is probably a good time to turn to the cross wind leg. Then you only need a 120 degree turn to get back to the runway.
Guess where I turned crosswind when departing on 7 at near gross weight from Green County several years ago?
0AC1370C-5BAB-486C-9776-4429731EA4FE.png

I did that last year when a wood prop came apart and it worked out swell.
Glad that you made it.


BJC
 

rick9mjn

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Having just gotten a glider add-on rating last week... the rope-break scenario is very interesting. Even in a modestly-performing trainer, a rope break at 300 feet or so sounds a lot scarier than it is. Still wouldn't be wanting to do it in the RV... though one day I'll definitely go up and do it at a safe altitude.
To;gtae07......good job, on getting your “ glider add-on rating “,

and you saying about doing a ( rope-break scenario in a RV. At 300 feet )
While I was ,one day being a airport bum , a RV. guy ,from 2 hanger rows down from my hanger,
one day, I saw him “on take off” do a “””rope-break scenario ” I thought it was for real,
but he, did land A - OK ,
so a day or two later, I saw him ,i ask him about his low altitude turn back, And he said,
he was just showing his passenger that it could be done......and it goes without saying, I would not be doing that without , doing it, a lot of time's by myself....
good day ,be safe.../rick
 
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