Engine failure turn back.

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

Hephaestus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
2,187
Location
YMM
I've wondered how long it will be before we read of an accident involving a pilot known to have a habit of flying through the Rocks in IFR using his synthetic vision. Knowing that GPS satellite signals can be blocked by surrounding peaks, I sure wouldn't attempt it. Someone surely will.
Oh it'll probably happen, may already have - surprisingly in the rogers corridor, I've been pretty rock solid for GPS signal... Crowsnest is a different story.
 

Daleandee

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
1,318
Location
SC
I've wondered how long it will be before we read of an accident involving a pilot known to have a habit of flying through the Rocks in IFR using his synthetic vision. Knowing that GPS satellite signals can be blocked by surrounding peaks, I sure wouldn't attempt it. Someone surely will.
This isn't the exact scenario you speak of but this video does show what I consider to be some really unwise decision making:

 

Dan Thomas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
5,799
Oh it'll probably happen, may already have - surprisingly in the rogers corridor, I've been pretty rock solid for GPS signal... Crowsnest is a different story.
Pre-GPS, I've been through the Rogers at lower level due to ceilings. I'm sure a GPS would have been unreliable then.
 

Hephaestus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
2,187
Location
YMM
Pre-GPS, I've been through the Rogers at lower level due to ceilings. I'm sure a GPS would have been unreliable then.
When I was doing it in the cherokee 140 - that's all I could do - engine saying "i think i can i think i can" all the way through. I really don't miss those days, still largely transit along tch because that's the route I'm most comfortable on - just a little higher now 😆
 

Aesquire

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
2,671
Location
Rochester, NY, USA
A variometer is a VSI with a small weighted piston in a cylinder that detects vertical accelerations and pushes or pulls air into or out of the VSI bellows to make it react faster.
I've never seen one like that, which means very little, since none I've used had a bellows at all. Neat idea, in theory. But a Variometer with airspeed input for Total Energy Compensation was the gold standard before GPS.


Actually, now that I think, the old one I was told to ignore in that club 2-33 might have had a bellows. I still have one with pith balls in my closet, which Worked really well, albeit without audio. Everything else, from Ball s to tiny ones on a circuit board the size of the 9 volt battery were electric. ( the tiny ones are now coin sized, half for speaker size ( audio only ) and half so you don't lose it. )

I'll ignore modern varios with GPS and full flight computer thermal mapping and landing dot on map than moves with airspeed and wind direction. Also engine instruments.

Re: the Impossible Turn.

It's good learning and quite fun to practice engine idle ( for safety ) steep turns with your eyes out of the cockpit, with plenty of altitude. Repeat with split attention on airspeed and/or AOA readings, but your purpose is to develop the Conditioned Response/sensory & muscle memory with eyes on the outside world.

As to speeds to fly, min sink speed gives you time to think, while flying straight and level, descending. But is a horrible idea while maneuvering. Times that min sink speed is smart are limited, mostly at higher altitudes than the engine failure on take off gives. So... Don't.

Best glide speed, Plus, is best. That's the cushion you've got, the speed over best glide, to stretch the glide. And the concept of "stretching your glide" should be accompanied by disbelief and pessimism. You can ONLY do that if you're well above max L/D, or by speeding up If you're at min sink, which is psychologically difficult.

Imho there's a tendency to want to slow down as the ground approaches and relative angles/motion give you the speed rush.
 

964SS

New Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
4
Location
Horton, MI, USA
Interesting discussion with many different views. However, the “average pilot” doesn’t doesn’t dive this deep into theory. Most are the kick the tires and light the fires type. So I continue to teach either straight ahead, or at most a 90 degree turn L or R. Land on a taxiway, open field, or pick the softest thing to hit while flying it all the way in.
 

tallank

Active Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
37
It does not. I was a commercial pilot and an instructor. Have an IFR rating. Taught Aircraft Systems in college. It takes a few seconds at most. Taking minutes would make it completely useless.

A variometer is a VSI with a small weighted piston in a cylinder that detects vertical accelerations and pushes or pulls air into or out of the VSI bellows to make it react faster.

Airspeed indications change very quickly. The principles of operation of the ASI and VSI are different.
The Rate of Climb is useless for short term changes. You will see this if you ever tried to fly by the Rate of Climb rather than only referencing it occasionally. Again, you can see this when you first takeoff. You will see that it slowly climbs as time goes by. It does not show the same number right after liftoff as it does a couple of minutes later.

Sorry but you have no idea how a variometer works. I have built a couple of them and flew sailplanes for 25 years. The rate of climb is measured by sensing the amount of air that is flowing in and out of container of air as the pressure changes due to altitude changes. The Veriometer has a big air bottle (a thermos) compared to a Rate of Climb just has its small case The viriometer is more sensitive to the change in air pressure do to altitude changes. One of the instruments I built would sense one foot change in altitude. There is no piston involved. How would you eliminate what turbulence would do to it?
 

Dan Thomas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
5,799
Interesting discussion with many different views. However, the “average pilot” doesn’t doesn’t dive this deep into theory. Most are the kick the tires and light the fires type. So I continue to teach either straight ahead, or at most a 90 degree turn L or R. Land on a taxiway, open field, or pick the softest thing to hit while flying it all the way in.
AS an instructor I realized that it was better to be a little high on a forced approach than a little low. It's better to bang into something at rolling speed that to hit something at flying speed.

We did a lot of off-airport work. New students who came with a PPL were sometimes shocked when we asked them to land in the grass alongside the runway. "You can do that??" they asked. We had access to some short, primitive farm strips, and deserted gravel roads too. We got the students used to the idea of taking the handiest bit of ground available.
 

Aesquire

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
2,671
Location
Rochester, NY, USA
I totally agree that if your VSI takes more than a few seconds to give you some reading, the actual number is less important, it's junk.

The ancient instrument shown in the illustration above is fine if there's no electricity, but no glider pilot would waste panel space for it from the 1970's onward. I wouldn't bother to glance at one today, but I would have bought one back in 1976.

I've spent hours with a pellet type, with a lunch box thermos strapped up in the wing ( double surface hang glider ) and the indicator velcroed to a foam wedge duct taped to the control bar ( to keep it more or less level ) Mine was smaller & lighter than this one.
Cosim Variometer.jpg

And the newer little ones... ( I've seen smaller ) SkyBean 2 - mini audio variometer for Paragliding and Hang Gliding | eBay
 

Pops

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
9,007
Location
USA.
On my homemade autopilot to lock on a pressure altitude, I used a quart glass jar. Would hold altitude within 25 feet. Set the gain up more and it would start oscillating in pitch. 25 feet was close enough for me.
 
Top