Electric Motor Battery?

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Armilite

Well-Known Member
Has anyone looked in the Aluminium Air Batteries? About 9x the Power of Lithiums! Also Lightweight. Technology has been around since the early 60's. The bad thing is once used up they need to be replaced. Can be Recycled. Take 5 minutes to change Battery Pack. Suppose to be cheap.

Aluminum-Air Batteries Could Benefit EVs, But Must Be Swapped

Recent Developments for Aluminum–Air Batteries

Al-air: a better battery for EVs

Jackson’s invention, he claims, boasts nine times the energy density of a Li-ion battery of comparable weight, or four times its energy density in equivalent volume. It is also much smaller and so takes up less space in the chassis. Furthermore, the battery is claimed to be recyclable, replaceable, environmentally friendly, and ethically sourced. Looking at the financial aspect, it works out at 1/7th the cost per kilowatt-hour of a Li-ion battery.

Kiwi303

Well-Known Member
But a Li-Ion can be used more than 7 times.

12notes

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Be wary of any technology that's been around since the 60s, but still not available commercially. Aluminum air has a regular cycle of a bunch of press releases every 5 years or so, then nothing. The production issues are way larger than the linked articles would lead you to believe. I wouldn't hold your breath for these, I remember seeing how they were going to be available "next year" in 2015.

I'd wait until you see production plants (not development projects) being built before getting excited about these.

WonderousMountain

Well-Known Member
Magnesium Air is better, but how do you recharge rust???

challenger_II

Well-Known Member
OOOOO! I bet THOSE make a pretty flame when they get p***ed off!

Armilite

Well-Known Member
But a Li-Ion can be used more than 7 times.
=========================

My Point was there 9x the Power and suppose to be fairly cheap. A Video I watched said an Aluminum Air 55lb Battery in a Car could do like 350 miles. Now, what would that translate into used in a Part 103 for Speed and Flight Time? Most Airframes come in between 170-180 lbs, so 254 lbs - 170 lbs = 84 lbs for Battery's & Controller & Motor.

Armilite

Well-Known Member
Magnesium Air is better, but how do you recharge rust???
==========================

Yes I saw some reference to the Magnesium Air, but Magnesium is probably rarer to find, Aluminum is all over. Magnesium also has a Fire Hazard problem.

Armilite

Well-Known Member
Be wary of any technology that's been around since the 60s, but still not available commercially. Aluminum air has a regular cycle of a bunch of press releases every 5 years or so, then nothing. The production issues are way larger than the linked articles would lead you to believe. I wouldn't hold your breath for these, I remember seeing how they were going to be available "next year" in 2015.

I'd wait until you see production plants (not development projects) being built before getting excited about these.
==================================

It's been around a long time but used more on high products. A lot of this Electric Technology has really just come to light in the last 10 years.

Kiwi303

Well-Known Member
my hearing aid batteries use Zinc Air.

All the bugs worked out and Zinc is common, why aren't they being used in Teslas if single use batteries were suitable.

Armilite

Well-Known Member
my hearing aid batteries use Zinc Air.

All the bugs worked out and Zinc is common, why aren't they being used in Teslas if single use batteries were suitable.
============================

How much longer does your Zinc-Air Batteries last vs Conventional, and Cost difference? Teslas are coming out with some New Batteries for their Cars. I was researching Solar stuff when I ran across the Aluminum Air Batteries. In the one video, they talked about a 55 lb Battery for a Car that could run over 300 miles. [email protected] = 5.4 hrs. [email protected] = 4.6 hrs. [email protected] = 4.2 hrs.

Now, most USA Part 103 Ultralights only need 25hp to 40hp Engines depending on their MTOW and are probably smaller hp Motors than used in these Electric Cars.

An acceptable Flight time would be 2hrs with a 15min Reserve, so maybe they could use an even lighter than 55 lb Aluminium Air Battery to meet that mission.

The average weight of USA Pilots falls between 180 lbs and 235 lbs.

An Electric Part 103 at 254 lbs + 235 lb Pilot + 10 lbs for Bags = 499 lbs = 226.3426 kg / 10 kg = 22.63426 kw needed = 30.35304 hp needed.

An Electric Part 103 at 254 lbs + 180 lb Pilot + 10 lbs for Bags = 444 lbs = 201.395 kg / 10 kg = 20.1395 kw needed = 27.00751 hp needed.

40hp @ 75% = 30.0hp A 660 lb MTOW requires 40.1hp if you want it to fly well.
35hp @ 75% = 26.3hp
----------------------------> For Average Weight Pilots 180-235 lbs.
30hp @ 75% = 22.5hp
28hp @ 75% = 21.0hp
26hp @ 75% = 19.5hp

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Kiwi303

Well-Known Member
WIkipedia gives the energy density of Zinc Air as follows:

Zinc-air battery; Specific energy: 470 (practical),1370 (theoretical) Wh/kg (1.692, 4.932 MJ/kg) Energy density: 1480-9780 Wh/L

So go with their "Practical" energy.

470 watt/hours per Kg.

40Hp is roughly 30Kw. it's somewhere around .75kw/1hp off the top of my head.

30,000 watt x 2.25 hours = 67,500W/H

67,500/470 = 143.62Kg battery to run your 30Kw motor at full current draw for your desired 2 hr 15 min on a 660lb plane.

At the theoretical max however (probably what the marketing puffery peddlers are using for their math for the aluminium air batteries) it changes.

67,500/1370 = 49.27Kg battery.

trimtab

Well-Known Member
Iron air batteries are trying to be a thing again. The chemistry can be designed to allow hundreds of reasonable discharge cycles, and are less expensive to replace. The downsides are huge...30% to 35% energy efficiency. The recent paid 'science' press release blast machine for the iron air battery is at least quick to note that "efficiency numbers have not been released". But it is safe to say that this means the needle probably hasn't moved a great deal there.

Still, it may be interesting for some terrestrial grid load levelling.

Flying machines, though? Would that it could. It can't yet.

12notes

Well-Known Member
Log Member
==================================

It's been around a long time but used more on high products. A lot of this Electric Technology has really just come to light in the last 10 years.
As far as I can tell, it has not been used in any products, high-end or not. It's only been used in labs and a few development projects that went nowhere so far. Or can you name some actual products with aluminum air batteries? I'll warn you now that searching for them on google will return a lot of "aluminum batteries" that are Lithium batteries in an aluminum case.

A lot of this electric technology is just being rehyped. There may be some breakthrough on these batteries, but there have been so many "breakthroughs" on aluminum air (and many other) batteries, that I won't believe any of them until they're actually ready for production.

Armilite

Well-Known Member
WIkipedia gives the energy density of Zinc Air as follows:

Zinc-air battery; Specific energy: 470 (practical),1370 (theoretical) Wh/kg (1.692, 4.932 MJ/kg) Energy density: 1480-9780 Wh/L

So go with their "Practical" energy.

470 watt/hours per Kg.

40Hp is roughly 30Kw. it's somewhere around .75kw/1hp off the top of my head.

30,000 watt x 2.25 hours = 67,500W/H

67,500/470 = 143.62Kg battery to run your 30Kw motor at full current draw for your desired 2 hr 15 min on a 660lb plane.

At the theoretical max however (probably what the marketing puffery peddlers are using for their math for the aluminium air batteries) it changes.

67,500/1370 = 49.27Kg battery.
============================

My Point was, a 55 lb Aluminum Air Battery, Powered a Car 300+ Miles. So the same 55 lb Battery would probably power an Ultralight 2+ Hours. The Rotax 277UL in 26hp and 28hp version powered probably 85% of the Part 103 Ultralights, were some Slow, Doggy account of being under Powered, Yes. [email protected]% = 21hp and [email protected]% = 19.5hp for Cruise.

Even Electric Motors aren't turned their Max Capacity in Cars or in Plane use. They have a Continuous use Rating also, usually at 50%. A [email protected]% = 56.25hp. Just as Gas Engines aren't used at their Max [email protected] rating either but for only a few minutes for Takeoff. [email protected]% = 30hp. Which if you use the simple Power to Weight Ratio of 1kw for 10kg Rule of Thumb, 660 lbs MTOW only needs 40.1hp. Most Part 103 Ultralights & Small Kitplanes their MTOW's fall between 450 lbs and 660 lbs.

The Lazair Ultralight first Flight 1978
is a good example, first flew Marginally on (2) 5.5hp = 11hp Chainsaw Engines, but soon upgraded to (2) Rotax 185's 9.4hp = 18.8hp, where ever they came up with that [email protected] rating is beyond me, Skidoo's website says [email protected], so really 16hp. People still weren't Happy with its Performance, so they used (2) Solo 210's/Hirth F36 rated [email protected] each = 30hp, and People were finally Happy. It's MTOW of 450 lbs = 204.1166 kg / 10 kg = 20.41166 kw needed = 27.37249 hp needed to fly well! A Lazair can Fly 2+hrs on 5 Gallons of Gas, so an Electric that can Match them numbers would be desirable. I would be happy with 2hrs and a 15min Reserve for Electric.

Specifications (Lazair Series II)
• Crew: one pilot
• Capacity: 240 lb (109 kg) useful load
• Length: 13 ft 0 in (3.96 m)
• Wingspan: 36 ft 4 in (11.1 m)
• Height: 6 ft 4 in (1.92 m)
• Wing area: 143 sq ft (13.3 m2)
• Airfoil: Custom Lazair airfoil, reflexed top and bottom
• Empty weight: 210 lb (95 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 450 lb (204 kg)
• Powerplant: 2 × Rotax 185 , 9.5 hp (7.1 kW) each <-- Wiki even has hp wrong.
Performance:
• Maximum speed: 55 mph (89 km/h, 48 kn)
• Cruise speed: 40 mph (65 km/h, 35 kn) [5]
• Stall speed: 17 mph (28 km/h, 15 kn)
• Never exceed speed: 60 mph (97 km/h, 52 kn)
• Range: 135 mi (217 km, 117 nmi)
• Service ceiling: 11,000 ft (3,350 m)
• Rate of climb: 200 ft/min (1.0 m/s)
• Power/mass: 23.7 lb/hp (0.069 kW/kg)
6kw = 8.046133 hp!

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Armilite

Well-Known Member
As far as I can tell, it has not been used in any products, high-end or not. It's only been used in labs and a few development projects that went nowhere so far. Or can you name some actual products with aluminum air batteries? I'll warn you now that searching for them on google will return a lot of "aluminum batteries" that are Lithium batteries in an aluminum case.

A lot of this electric technology is just being rehyped. There may be some breakthrough on these batteries, but there have been so many "breakthroughs" on aluminum air (and many other) batteries, that I won't believe any of them until they're actually ready for production.
======================

Since the Air Aluminum Battery was introduced in the early 60's, the Cold War Era, and GAS was cheap like .31 cents a gallon, Fact #741: August 20, 2012 Historical Gasoline Prices, 1929-2011 and I would assume it was Designed for NASA and the Military! That was 60+ Years ago! Just as these Lithium 18650 Cells used today in these Electric Cars are still expensive today, Radio Shack was $5 each, cheaper but used on eBay, but still very expensive since you needs hundreds (350+ for an Ultralight 1hr) to thousands (for Cars/Trucks) to makeup Battery Packs. Just (1) Battery Pack for a Car is like 350+ Cells and they use 10+ of them for a Car. (1) of 10, I believed used in a 2014 Chevy Volt Lithium Ion Battery 3kWh pack 72v$585 used from a Junk Yard a couple of years ago when I was looking into the feasiblity of going Electric.

•The New Chevrolet Volt features a 16kWh lithium-ion battery pack that weighs less than 400 pounds (181.4 kg).

•The Chevrolet Volt battery is recharged by plugging the vehicle into a household-type electrical outlet. Recharging takes about eight hours using a 120v outlet and less than three hours on 240v.

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Armilite

Well-Known Member
Iron air batteries are trying to be a thing again. The chemistry can be designed to allow hundreds of reasonable discharge cycles, and are less expensive to replace. The downsides are huge...30% to 35% energy efficiency. The recent paid 'science' press release blast machine for the iron air battery is at least quick to note that "efficiency numbers have not been released". But it is safe to say that this means the needle probably hasn't moved a great deal there.

Still, it may be interesting for some terrestrial grid load levelling.

Flying machines, though? Would that it could. It can't yet.
======================

So far we have mentioned an Aluminuim Air, a Zinc Air, and now an Iron Air Battery. The Aluminum Air is said to be 9x of these Lithium Batterys, where does the Zinc Air and Iron Air Batterys fall in comparision?

12notes

Well-Known Member
Log Member
======================

Since the Air Aluminum Battery was introduced in the early 60's, the Cold War Era, and GAS was cheap like .31 cents a gallon, Fact #741: August 20, 2012 Historical Gasoline Prices, 1929-2011 and I would assume it was Designed for NASA and the Military! That was 60+ Years ago! Just as these Lithium 18650 Cells used today in these Electric Cars are still expensive today, Radio Shack was $5 each, cheaper but used on eBay, but still very expensive since you needs hundreds (350+ for an Ultralight 1hr) to thousands (for Cars/Trucks) to makeup Battery Packs. Just (1) Battery Pack for a Car is like 350+ Cells and they use 10+ of them for a Car. (1) of 10, I believed used in a 2014 Chevy Volt Lithium Ion Battery 3kWh pack 72v$585 used from a Junk Yard a couple of years ago when I was looking into the feasiblity of going Electric.

•The New Chevrolet Volt features a 16kWh lithium-ion battery pack that weighs less than 400 pounds (181.4 kg).

•The Chevrolet Volt battery is recharged by plugging the vehicle into a household-type electrical outlet. Recharging takes about eight hours using a 120v outlet and less than three hours on 240v.
None of those used aluminum air batteries. This is just a wish list, the technology has many problems that have not been solved, and is nowhere near ready for production or practical use in any product.

As far as I can tell, there isn't evidence that any product - consumer, military, and NASA included- has ever used aluminum air batteries. It has only been used in labs and a few one-off demonstration projects that went nowhere and may have been just mock ups.

I'd really like it if these were going to be available sometime in the near future, but hyping a technology that has massive problems that are still not solved after 50 years of development isn't helping. Wait until they have a reasonable process for producing and recharging them that doesn't just work in a lab before getting excited. A lab project or a company investing money in development isn't news, that's been happening for half a century. Breaking ground on a production plant would be news.

Kiwi303

Well-Known Member
======================

So far we have mentioned an Aluminuim Air, a Zinc Air, and now an Iron Air Battery. The Aluminum Air is said to be 9x of these Lithium Batterys, where does the Zinc Air and Iron Air Batterys fall in comparision?

ex wikipedia:

WIkipedia gives the energy density of Zinc Air as follows:

Zinc-air battery; Specific energy: 470 (practical),1370 (theoretical) Wh/kg (1.692, 4.932 MJ/kg) Energy density: 1480-9780 Wh/L

Wikipedia gives the energy density of Lithium Iron Phosphate cells as follows:

ithium iron phosphate battery; Specific energy: 90-160 Wh/kg (320-580 J/g or kJ/kg) Energy density: 325 Wh/L (1200 kJ/L) Specific power: around 200 W/kg:

So current practical Zinc Air as used in billions of batteries around the world currently powering hearing aids and other things is around 4x what Lithium can do, but can't be recharged.
Theoretical limits quite a bit higher.

trimtab

Well-Known Member
======================

So far we have mentioned an Aluminuim Air, a Zinc Air, and now an Iron Air Battery. The Aluminum Air is said to be 9x of these Lithium Batterys, where does the Zinc Air and Iron Air Batterys fall in comparision?
The iron air version has roughly a third of the energy density of the aluminum version. It can be configured as a rechargeable battery with more cycle potential than aluminum versions have been able to. The materials are cheaper as well. That's all.

tspear

Well-Known Member
@12notes

The question to me is if the AL problems are solvable. That I do not know.

Tim