EAA video: members only?

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Little Scrapper

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I want to say thank you to all the folks that put their heart into this discussion, including the folks that, (incorrectly) ;-) disagreed with mine and others moral position.

I have to say I did feel physical sick when I thought that fellow aviators would not have free and unencumbered access to Gordon Penner's stall spin material that he is just so generous in sharing and states clearly in his webinars how he want's us all to be ambassadors for this information and yet here was the organizing body that I respect so highly locking it down.

This thread has helped me gather some more clarity on what it is that I found so wrong about this move. So thanks again all.

To clear up some left over tangents: The below has never been the issue that was so sickening, in my mind.





It wouldn't matter what the obstruction was for instance, money, membership, filling out a long and detailed questionnaire, access only from US based IP addresses, having to prove you can shoot a 2" group from 300 yards off the elbows... Focusing on the obstruction it's self was a distraction and kept missing the heart of the matter.

Which is simply should we tolerate far reaching leaders in our industry locking down content of experts that are passionate about ensuring it is freely available and remains that way. And also should certain types of information in Aviation be sacrosanct, NTSB reports etc. and if so where do we draw the line.

It looks like EAA are getting the message and in fairness this move was probably really meant for the Hints for Homebuilders content not the Mike Busch, Gordon Penner and Professor Paul Schuch webinars.

I see that all of the archived content is still freely available on the old site.
https://video.eaa.org



Dillpickle, thank you too. If they roll back access to at least the webinars I will trust them again.
Have you considered that you're taking this subject far too serious? Because that's is an option. Life has a way of working out, it's not really that big of a deal.

I always consider both sides of the discussion, there's a high probability that it was a good idea and it will actually help others.

The free vs pay scenario isn't going to increase aviation accidents, that's just silly to think that.

As far as the folks doing the actual webinars? Well, that's between them and and EAA not you and I.

Unless you have personally done webinars for the EAA? You can always do a free webinar on YouTube. You have that right and that freedom.
 

pfarber

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The EAA now is not what is was. I have absolutely ZERO interest in supporting young pilots. If schools/CFI's/airlines want pilots let them give out scholarships or have pipelines. What part of Experimental Aircraft has anything to do with poor kids getting a 10 minute flight? Pilot training has a 80% dropout rate. My dues can be put to better use with A&Ps or other efforts.

Back in the day it was about craftsman and engineers. Not trying to find poor yut's and get them to fly. Yet most of my EAA chapter's events are fundraising for Young Eagles.

As for the paywall.. meh, who cares. Most of everything they do is easily found elsewhere.

The EAA now is all about rich dudes buying $50k kits that they have to match drill and call it 'educational'. LOL

Every EAA chapter should be required, every 5 years to, to build and fly, from plans, at least a 2 place E-AB with a 100hp motor. These Doing so enables your to be called a Premier chapter and gets you head of line privileges for EAA events like Oshkosh etc.
 

bmcj

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Back in the day it was about craftsman and engineers. Not trying to find poor yut's and get them to fly.
There’s a lot of truth in this statement.



Every EAA chapter should be required, every 5 years to, to build and fly, from plans, at least a 2 place E-AB with a 100hp motor. These Doing so enables your to be called a Premier chapter and gets you head of line privileges for EAA events like Oshkosh etc.
Now there’s an idea I could stand behind. Make it optional, but make the benefits exceptionally generous for doing so.
 

Dillpickle

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The EAA now is not what is was.

As for the paywall.. meh, who cares. Most of everything they do is easily found elsewhere.

The EAA now is all about rich dudes buying $50k kits that they have to match drill and call it 'educational'. LOL/QUOTE]

When I started building my first airplane, I wasn't a pilot. I went to the airport and met a few "Old Guys" who were building. When I discovered there was an EAA chapter 25 minutes away, I talked one of the gents into going to a meeting with me. He laughed and said that the local chapters, for the most part, were "knife and fork clubs" where one or two guys BUILD and every one else talks and eats. That was it. I met some REALLY good guys there, but in the last 20 years, maybe four of us actually BUILT airplanes. About one in 20 flew a homebuilt someone else built. And everybody else flew a Cessna or Piper. THATS OK! It is their club. But it AINT about building experimental airplanes. And my friend was right--in MOST chapters. Some do amazing ****. But I found I could get a lot more done by spending the extra time in the shop!
 

radfordc

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I guess the EAA could take a page from the porn websites. Offer lots of free content to attract viewers, and then charge a premium for the "good stuff". Or so I've heard....
 

Wanttaja

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The EAA now is all about rich dudes buying $50k kits that they have to match drill and call it 'educational'. LOL
*Match drill*? That's for commoners. Your typical builder these days wants the kits to come with all the holes CNC drilled.

Every EAA chapter should be required, every 5 years to, to build and fly, from plans, at least a 2 place E-AB with a 100hp motor. These Doing so enables your to be called a Premier chapter and gets you head of line privileges for EAA events like Oshkosh etc.
EAA's big enough now that they're too tempting a lawsuit target. That's why events like Sun-and-Fun and Arlington aren't "EAA" events now. There was a fatal crash at Arlington a while back, and EAA was a named co-defendant...and had much deeper pockets than the fly-in organization.

Years ago, the Lancair Owners and Buyer's Organization (LOBO) instituted a bunch of programs to improve the Lancair's safety record. The accident rate for LOBO-trained pilots was much better than the overall mass of owners.

But was that due to the LOBO training, or because someone who would make the effort to receive the training was *already* safety conscious?

Aye, there's the rub.

Even if EAA makes all the building-quality videos free to anyone, there's nothing forcing folks to watch them, or to implement the lessons they include. Likely, those who *would* be interested in them is already concerned about safety. And would probably find other good reasons to pay the $40/year for EAA membership.

We've all seen cases of "Home Depot" airplanes, where amateurs have tried to build airplanes on the cheap using trash materials. The comment sections of the videos are usually FILLED with people saying, "Don't do that!" But it doesn't work.

If a person *is* safety conscious, they'll recognize that $40/year is trivial, in the overall expenses of building what they'll hope is a safe airplane. The ones that don't care? Won't matter if it's free, they're not going to listen, anyway.

The number of new homebuilt aircraft is generally on the decline, as is the overall size of the homebuilt fleet. Don't think more or less free data will affect that, by very much...building an airplane is a massive physical effort and still very much a large financial one.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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Little Scrapper

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It's an illusion to think chapters were full of scratch builders, everything was right with the world, the stars aligned etc.

The world is in a constant state of change. People are building exactly as they should be, the builder sets the who, what, when, where and how.

There's no rule or law that says the past is what we should be doing now. They had issues too. Lots of issues.

Markets dictate the trend, nobody can force it. I have a plumbing business, I can use myself as a example.
Many years ago most people could grab a screwdriver and adjust a toilet float. That's just not true today, I've told people over the phone exactly how to do it and they tell me "naa, I'll just pay you to do it". It's a $155 and they love writing that check.

You see, people are in love with remodeling on TV not actually doing it themselves. They love TV, sitting and eating fast processed food. In the 50'sand 60's garages had tools in them and people knew how to use them. That's just not the case anymore.

So telling people they need to scratch build? That's absurd. That's no different than saying people need to drink milk out of glass bottles again.

So there's no wrong or right, there's just a market and the market place. People are free to choose and they do choose. They have chosen.
 

Pops

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It's an illusion to think chapters were full of scratch builders, everything was right with the world, the stars aligned etc.

The world is in a constant state of change. People are building exactly as they should be, the builder sets the who, what, when, where and how.

There's no rule or law that says the past is what we should be doing now. They had issues too. Lots of issues.

Markets dictate the trend, nobody can force it. I have a plumbing business, I can use myself as a example.
Many years ago most people could grab a screwdriver and adjust a toilet float. That's just not true today, I've told people over the phone exactly how to do it and they tell me "naa, I'll just pay you to do it". It's a $155 and they love writing that check.

You see, people are in love with remodeling on TV not actually doing it themselves. They love TV, sitting and eating fast processed food. In the 50'sand 60's garages had tools in them and people knew how to use them. That's just not the case anymore.

So telling people they need to scratch build? That's absurd. That's no different than saying people need to drink milk out of glass bottles again.

So there's no wrong or right, there's just a market and the market place. People are free to choose and they do choose. They have chosen.

Sorry to say I think you are correct. Not many people today know how to do much of anything in the mechanical world they live in. If they ever have to do the mechanical things to survive they will not.
 

cdlwingnut

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The current generation of kids can program a complex FMS system but can't make a decent cross wind landing. They can hook up a computer network but can not change their oil. They are scared of anything with a tail wheel. Which is probably good because they'd swap ends as soon as they added throttle. I had one kid from a well know part 141 4 year school that couldn't tell me what direction the wind was coming from without a G1000. They don't know what end of a wrench is which and you want them to build something from scratch?
But on the other hand:
A scratch built pietenpol isn't much use other than pure fun, where an RV-9 or 14 can be a really useful machine. and the the amount of time and skill in building an RV-7A kit and scratch building something like my ultra-piet is probable pretty even but just different skills, yes i have to source material and fabricate a lot of parts, but they have more complex systems to assemble and they have avionics to wire up and get right.

the big difference is money. the total cost of my build probably wouldn't do the paint and propeller of an RV-9, And if you have a big checkbook you can buy a Glassair kit and have the factory build it for you while they take a picture or two of you sanding a part so they can say you built it.
 

rv7charlie

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The EAA now is not what is was. I have absolutely ZERO interest in supporting young pilots. If schools/CFI's/airlines want pilots let them give out scholarships or have pipelines. What part of Experimental Aircraft has anything to do with poor kids getting a 10 minute flight? Pilot training has a 80% dropout rate. My dues can be put to better use with A&Ps or other efforts.

Back in the day it was about craftsman and engineers. Not trying to find poor yut's and get them to fly. Yet most of my EAA chapter's events are fundraising for Young Eagles.
[snip]
I've got my own list of gripes about EAA, but I must say, this isn't one of them. I realize that it isn't directly 'experimental aviation', but it's closer to home than a lot of their activities. As much as I love flying, one of my major motivators to actually crank the engine is taking someone else up with me. Especially if they've never gotten to fly before. And that doesn't matter whether they are 'poor'; where'd you see that in the YE program notes?

If you're really that self centered and it's all about you, then expand your perspective a bit. The airlines will get their pilots, EAA or no EAA. But what percentage of all pilots are airline pilots? And what percentage of the total population are *any* kind of pilot? (Hint: 300million+ people in the USA, and <600,000 pilots.) If we don't keep the GA pilot population at some reasonable level, the airlines (and the general public) will drive us out of existence. Yesterday, a helicopter crash-landed on a building in New York City, and within hours, a NY legislator was on TV saying all 'non-essential' helicopter flights over the city should be banned.

Even if it's all about you, without the strength of numbers you may find that you can no longer fly.
 

Pops

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Sort of like my printer , built to do everything, but is almost useless in everything. Would rather have a printer that printed well and nothing else.
 

BJC

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Sort of like my printer , built to do everything, but is almost useless in everything. Would rather have a printer that printed well and nothing else.
I have an AP ENVY100 too, Pops. It is a real POS.


BJC
 

Flow

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Have you considered that you're taking this subject far too serious? Because that's is an option. Life has a way of working out, it's not really that big of a deal...
As far as the folks doing the actual webinars? Well, that's between them and and EAA not you and I.
Fair question though if the issue didn't really matter to people this thread wouldn't have taken the life it has here with all heartfelt and well considered responses from so many and guessing you wouldn't have responded as fully either?

I think it is worthy issue because these type of moves cut at the fabric of core human values which is why people have been so incensed by this one.

Free will:
It is a crying shame when people use free will arguments to encourage bystanders not to step up. Scrappy, I sure hope you would step in if you saw a good mate being robbed. Many would even for strangers. That is who we are. Courage and protective instincts are one of the redemption of the human race. It is also our nature to duck for cover so poisoning courage and protective instincts with 'we should not involve our selves' is a public dis-service rather than service and partly how the Germans arrived at their 1930s and 40s. We need to encourage not discourage folks to step up to serve and protect others. Challenging the EAA on their decision making is a sound and constructive way to do just that because now what they do has an impact on so many.

Responsibility:
It also looks like some folks still have not got the power/responsibility consanguinity either. Let me spell it out because this one is important.
If one actively intends and seek to widen ones influence and reach in the world by say, operating out of an MO "To grow participation in aviation by promoting the “Spirit of Aviation.”" as the EAA does with its many good deeds of service, they cannot then expect to skirt or shirk the responsibility they also garner and become charged with now well beyond the membership, as people have noted.

Even if you somewhat accidentally end up with a wide reach the responsibility can become burdensome. Ask any manufactured overnight pop star.

Trying to convince everyone that the aliens are coming with the usual tools of influence and then that we all need to put on our Nikes and drink this cannot be made right with "they had all had a choice"

The very tools that are used to coerce or encourage and inspire people are firmly rooted in the understanding that free will in humans is not the be all and end all, sadly not even close. It is a nice ideal but I am sorry it is just not true nor is life that simple.

I agree with the guy that invented aviation with spaghetti from prison that "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" but never through redaction. These types of simplification are dangerous, case in point being that most pilots and operators still don't properly understand what Va actually is and even after 265 people died because the PF had a redacted view of it we are still teaching Va incorrectly today because the FAA think it would be too complicated to fix! Life never has nor ever will as simple as "well you have a choice."

The EAA has done a great job of spreading their very positive influence well past their membership to the point where much of GA now looks to them for guidance. A good deal of responsibility now comes with that. You may not like it, you may not want it but if you stick your oar in that deep you now have a duty to think about keeping the boat clear of the rocks.

With power comes responsibility. It is just a natural law, as certain as gravity and no amount of 'they have no culpability' rhetoric will either depreciate the good work of the EAA or excuse them if they make a bad call.

If they do lock Gordon Penner's stall spin webinars behind a paywall for force them onto a less trafficked presence, less people will see it, less people will share it as he asks of us, that information will have a far narrower reach and the future will be changed for the worse. It is just a statistical fact. That content should remain in the EAA's well trafficked public domain. They have now made it their responsibility to Aviation not just membership whether they wanted to or not. In fact their mission statement clearly states they did and do, want to as well.


Chicken and egg:
Do markets dictate? From all accounts quite the reverse. It is the marketers that dictate along with naive popularity based algos. Advertising, PR and marketing encompass a huge industry sector because it all works not because it doesn't. EAA is a powerful marketing engine and change agent and as a result they too have the power to dictate. What they do with that power and how they conduct them selves is the core of the issue here.

As others are saying EAA may also have become out of touch at the top which may have allowed them to make such a clanger in the first place. This happens to the best of us from time to time during growth spurts. And now we are performing our service to the future here, elsewhere and directly with EAA by debating it.


Ron, out of interest do you have the data from 2016 to present? I think we have seen a reversal, no?


Chopper girl, I think we are all guilty of that for sure though there is sufficient tension between the pillars of ideas here to hold up the foundations of a meaningful and hopefully useful discussion. Do you think so? Or have we missed a trick?

I think what is underlying a lot of this is essentially a disappointment with what EAA has done here, how they did it and a concern that it points to a sickness within, followed by a very healthy exhalation of what people who are impacted by the EAAs decisions (pretty much all of us these days) want the EAA to be and do with the influence they have.
 
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BJC

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...which is why people have been so incensed by this one.
Incensed? A few, perhaps. Most just seem to think that the move will lead to fewer people getting involved with sport aviation.
Challenging the EAA on their decision making is a sound and constructive way to do just that ...
Agree. Please share the details of your communications with the EAA doing just that.
If one actively
intends and seek to widen ones influence and reach in the world by say, operating out of an MO "To grow participation in aviation by promoting the “Spirit of Aviation.”" as the EAA does with its many good deeds of service, they cannot then expect to skirt or shirk the responsibility they also garner and become charged with now well beyond the membership, as people have noted.
Just because they have chosen to meet their “responsibility” in a way different from what you think they should, doesn’t mean that they are shirking “their responsibility.”
Trying to convince everyone that the aliens are coming ...
Coming? They already are here.
The very tools that are used to coerce or encourage and inspire people are firmly rooted in the understanding that free will in humans is not the be all and end all, sadly not even close. It is a nice ideal but I am sorry it is just not true nor is life that simple.

I agree with the guy that invented aviation with spaghetti from prison that "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" but never through redaction. These types of simplification are dangerous, case in point being that most pilots and operators still don't properly understand what Va actually is and even after 265 people died because the PF had a redacted view of it we are still teaching Va incorrectly today because the FAA think it would be too complicated to fix! Life never has nor ever will as simple as "well you have a choice."
Please provide a citation for your assertion that “we are still teaching Va incorrectly today because the FAA think it would be too complicated to fix!“ I want to understand it better so I can discuss it with the FAA flight training standards representative at Oshkosh next month.
The EAA has done a great job of spreading their very positive influence well past their membership to the point where much of GA now looks to them for guidance. A good deal of responsibility now comes with that. You may not like it, you may not want it but if you stick your oar in that deep you now have a duty to think about keeping the boat clear of the rocks.

With power comes responsibility. It is just a natural law, as certain as gravity and no amount of 'they have no culpability' rhetoric will either depreciate the good work of the EAA or excuse them if they make a bad call.
I understand that you think that they “made a bad call.” You are entitled to your opinion. But you may be wrong as to the long term results of their actions.
If they do lock Gordon Penner's stall spin webinars behind a paywall for force them onto a less trafficked presence, less people will see it, less people will share it as he asks of us, that information will have a far narrower reach and the future will be changed for the worse. It is just a statistical fact.
Alternatively, interested persons may join EAA to see it, and, from that exposure and participation, learn much more and become safer pilots than they would from a free viewing. I don’t accept your assertion that it is a statistical fact that the “future will be changed for the worse.”

You passionately believe that the EAA has made not only a bad decision, but an immoral one. That is a serious accusation, even on an internet forum. You have stated your case against the EAA here. Please share with us EAA’s response to your communications with them about this issue. That may give us a better understanding of their thinking.


BJC
 

pfarber

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Wow the EAA Mission statement is a bunch of garbage. 'Serve the Community'? The same 'community' that would shut down every local airport if they had the chance?

'Sport Aviation'? You can't buy a new airplane for less than $100k... more like $200k. What kind of 'sport' is that?

The videos are the least of the EAA's problems.

I enjoy my chapter meetings (mainly the food beforehand). I support my chapter, but 75% of the time they are NOT doing anything EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT related. I know there are some members that are building... but most are pilots. I didn't join the AOPA, but the EAA.

Oh well... back to the garage.
 
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