e-Lazair Info!

Discussion in 'Electric Propulsion' started by Armilite, Jun 25, 2019.

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  1. Jun 29, 2019 #41

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    =============>
    Very few things ever get Cheaper over time.

    Light Sport Aircraft Sales haven't Panned out, and with the lack of Light Sport Training Facilities, it's never going to be very good. Most of these manufacturers got Greedy overnight.

    My younger brother taught at a Flight School for 2 1/2 years. Now fly's today for United in one of the Newest Big Planes. He said you're much better off, buying your Plane and getting lessons in it versus Renting. For Ultralights, you don't have that Option. The biggest problem is most People don't have the money up front, so when something happens, like Car needs a Transmission, Engine, Tires, etc., and then they skip lessons which over Time they forget stuff, so in the end, it takes them even longer, which means even more Money.

    Like anything, it's How you Market your Product and your Service. Key Word Service! Today you have more Tools to Market your Product or Service than ever. One Person can only do so much in a day. At $35hr x 8hrs = $280 a day. At $50hr x 8hrs = $400 a day. To a lot of people, that's a good Wage or Income. If you aren't Flight Training or doing Ground School, you can do Engine & Airframe Repairs and Sales of Aircraft. True, Flight Training alone has never made great money, but any Successful Busines is multifaceted today. If you're a Dealer or Manufacture of XYZ Plane, you have a much greater chance of making good money. Just Part 103's Ultralights, probably have a Profit Margin of $5000+. A Flight Business which offers Training, Plane Sales, Engine/Airframe Service, Parts, has a greater chance of making Good Money. A lot depends on what you want out of Life and How much you really need to do that. I've known a few people who have lost their Job to NAFTA, one as a Tool & Die guy, who then started a Home Base Business doing Custom Target Pistols, to making different Jigs for Wood Working, to become a Multi-Millionaire in a few years. He lived about 7 Miles from me. He's Retired now and living in Flordia, his son is running the Company today. So anything is possible if your willing to work at it.
    https://www.kregtool.com/store/c13/kreg-jigsreg/

    1. Yellow Page Ad
    2. Sunday Paper
    3. Daily Paper
    4. YouTube
    5. Craigslist
    6. Web Groups like HomeBuilt Airplanes
    7. Barnstormers
    8. Different Large Events around You, State Fair, County Fair, Car Shows, Hey Days, etc., Booth.
    9. Air Venture & Sun and Fun Booth.
    10. eBay AD
    11. Amazon AD
    12. Your own Web Page
    13. Video DVD
    14. PDF Sales Flyer sent via e-mail

    Basic Ground Instruction & Flight Instruction is the same for Sport Pilot (20hrs minimum) & Private Pilot (40hrs minimum), and what you would learn to Fly for an Ultralight. How they divide up that minimum Time also can vary, 10hr/10hr vs 20hr/20hr. Plane Rental is the Biggest Cost of getting a License. Flight Instructor Pay can vary greatly depending on where you live. Even Microsft Flight Sim can be used to Build Hours. Most People only Think of what was, not what it is today 2019.

    My Local Haps Flight Training. Doesn't Post Plane Rental Fee on Web Page you have to Call them. Doesn't over Sport Pilot License.

    Private License:
    • FAA requires 40 hours minimum training.
    • All training will be done in Cessna 172’s
    • 1-on-1 Training
    • Fly as often as your schedule will allow
    Based on the FAA minimum requirements, we estimate a Private license will cost $5,500-$6,000.
    *Hap's offers a 5% discount for flight students that pay ahead. Are you a student at Iowa State? Contact us about other discounts!

    Central Iowa Air Service another place in Town.
    Our Services
    Central Iowa Air Service is your full-service FBO in Ames, Iowa. Central Iowa Air Service offers:

    * Full-service fueling
    * Aircraft Charter / Aircraft Management
    * Flight Instruction- $35-$50/hour + Aircraft Rental
    Rental Photo attached.
    ============================================

    Iowa Flight Training in Cedar Rapids 1:30 away.
    Programs
    INTRODUCTORY FLIGHT Imagine the adventure of piloting an aircraft. It’s an experience you will never forget! Includes: First Flight Lesson & 1/2 hour of Ground Training $99.00

    SPORT PILOT CERTIFICATE COURSE With a Sport Pilot license, you can carry one passenger, daytime only, and not in the clouds or for hire. Requirements for an FAA Sport Pilot certificate:

    • At least 16 years old to solo. At least 17 years old to earn a license
    • Read, speak, and understand the English language
    • Pass the FAA Private Pilot knowledge exam (40 questions, at least 70% correct)
    • Minimum of 20 hours of flight time
    • Pass a practical test consisting of an oral exam and a flying exam
    • Expect to spend about $4000 to $5000 while earning a Sport Pilot license. We can not guarantee how long it will take, so your cost may vary and could be much more if it takes more hours to finish.
    PRIVATE PILOT CERTIFICATE COURSE With a Private Pilot license, you can carry passengers day or night, but not in the clouds or for hire. Requirements for an FAA Private Pilot certificate:

    • At least 16 years old to solo. At least 17 years old to earn a license
    • Read, speak, and understand the English language
    • Pass an FAA 3rd Class physical examination (basic physical)
    • Pass the FAA Private Pilot knowledge exam (60 questions, at least 70% correct)
    • Minimum of 40 hours of flight time including:
      • 20 Hours Dual Instruction
      • 3 Hours Dual Cross Country
      • 3 Hours Instrument Flight Training
      • 3 Hours Night Time Including 1 Cross Country Over 100nm Total Distance, 10 Night Landings
    • Pass a practical test consisting of an oral exam and a flying exam
    • Expect to spend about $7000 to $10,000 while earning a Private Pilot license, depending on your total hours and the type of airplane you use. We can not guarantee how long it will take, so your cost may vary and could be much more if it takes more hours to finish.
    SPORT PILOT GROUND SCHOOL$200, includes materials. This class is designed to prepare you for the Sport Pilot knowledge exam. We offer the class in a one-weekend or weekly, once-a-week form. Call 319-373-3971 or email us at the link below for more information or to register. We also will bring ground school classes to your community. Contact us for more information. Iowa Flight Training

    PRIVATE PILOT GROUND SCHOOL$250, includes materials. This class is designed to prepare you for the Private Pilot knowledge exam. We offer the class in a one-weekend or weekly, once-a-week form. Call 319-373-3971 or email us at the link below for more information or to register. We also will bring ground school classes to your community. Contact us for more information. Iowa Flight Training.

    Plane Rental $119hr x 40hrs = $4760 + Ground School + Testing + Instructor.
    Plane Rental $119hr x 45hrs = $5355 + Ground School + Testing + Instructor.
    Plane Rental $119hr x 50hrs = $5950 + Ground School + Testing + Instructor.
    Plane Rental $119hr x 55hrs = $6545 + Ground School + Testing + Instructor.
    ===================================

    So if you really want to Fly an Ultralight, and you want some Instruction, If you can get SPORT PILOT GROUND SCHOOL$200, Rent a Plane for $119hr x 10hr = $1,190, and Pay an Instructor - $35-$50/hour, $35 x 10hrs = $350 or $50 x 10hrs = $500.

    $200 + $1190 + $350 = $1740 or $200 + $1,190 + $500 = $1,890 today in 2019! Would it be Smart to still find someone or a Manufacture with similar Type 2 Seat AirPlane and try to get a Basic Flight in one, Yes. A Smile, Offer Lunch and offer to Pay for the Gas still goes a long way. Who knows you might make a new friend.

    Now, could some people just do maybe the Ground School and fewer Hours to cut Cost, Yes? Some may need even more Hours to feel comfortable. Now I just bought Large Coke and a Cheeseburger at the Gun Show today $15.

    Plane Rental in Ames, IA at one of the places.

    AIRCRAFT RENTAL.jpg
     
  2. Jun 29, 2019 #42

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

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    Most people who really want to achieve will work at least 60 hours per week and often 70.


    BJC
     
  3. Jun 29, 2019 #43

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    =============

    I don't expect them to change the basic Part 103 Rules, even though I think they could be Upgraded, but this new Electric stuff is not formally addressed in the Part 103 Rules and there should have been a Special Meeting Session involving the EAA, and these different Manufactures to all give some Input. These are Rules and Interpretations made by these FAA Employees, not Laws passed by Congress.
     
  4. Jun 29, 2019 #44

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

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    Regulations issued by the FAA, including the establishment of Part 103, “ ... have the force and effect of law.”

    See http://arsa.org/regulatory/faa/rulemaking/


    BJC
     
  5. Jun 29, 2019 #45

    n3puppy

    n3puppy

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    Seems like the battery issue can be handled within the rules as written, while waiting for them to change someday.

    Per FAR 103 - Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation;

    1) Build the batteries into the structure of the floats/sponsons. The E-Lazair has already been flown on floats. We'll have lots more amphibians flying.



    2) Work with BRS and other chute makers to design one incorporating/deployed by 384 battery cells

    3) If a DIY battery pack, make it easy to jettison. Quick jettison battery pack is a safety device for reducing weight, extending the glide range of the craft in a "Potentially Catastrophic Situation"
    ;)
     
    litespeed and proppastie like this.
  6. Jun 29, 2019 #46

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

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    I like your sense of humor.


    BJC
     
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  7. Jun 29, 2019 #47

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Very True. Hard Work usually Pays Off. I just found it was a lot easier to use my Brain to make more Money so I didn't have to work so much, so I had time to spend with the Wife and Kids. Most People are afraid to even try to succeed, or even change Jobs that Pay more. There are many ways to make good money if your willing to Invest your Time and a little money. Buying, Fixing, and Flipping Realistate is the best way. I just saw an Acreage Property that Sold at a Sheriff Sale a few months ago for $1,497 and the Person then listed it for $60,000. Sold it two weeks ago for $38,500 a $37,000 Profit. You would probably have to Sell (8) Ultralights to make that. The Land alone was worth minimum $50,000, also had a large, I think 40' x 60' Morton Building Shop with a Cement Floor, Heat, worth $40,000+, A Shed 10ft x 10ft worth a $1,500, and an Older 40' x 60' Garage that needed a Roof job. The House needs some work, but Property is worth over $220,000+ once Cleaned up and fixed up, maybe $40-45,000 in Improvements. Potential for a 100K+ Profit. You would have to Sell probably (20) Ultralights to make that. Would have made a Nice Ultralight Manufacturing Bussiness. Enough Land for an Ultralight Airstrip. There was Casey's next door for Gas even.

    These Airframe Manufactures to circumvent the Rules, would be Smart to make more Sales, is if they just offered Free Ultralight Training, say 1hr of Ground School, some or All of which could be completed with an Online Course, or DVD, with 8hrs of Free Flying Lessons if they also make a two-seater version. 8hrs even at $50hr = $400. Just add the Cost onto the Total Price of the Plane. Another option is If the Manufacture is close to the US Border, like Mexico or Canada, Cuba, other Islands, etc., I would just contract out the Part 103 Training across the Border to other People. Let them make the money doing the Training. As a Manufacturer maybe Selling Ultralights and Kitplanes to Dealerships around the World which most don't have these same Rules could offer the Training. There are about 225 Countries in the World. How many people Cross the Border to Canada at Niagra Falls alone each year. Would you stay an extra Day to get some Part 103 Training for $XYZ amount? Maybe get some nice Aerial Tours of the Falls area while Training.

    Also, Indian Reservations in the USA, I don't think Falls under US Law or Rules. Hmmmm, how many Indian Reservations in the USA, 150+ that you could maybe start some different Training Sights with possible Dealerships for your Plane. Indians like to stick it to the White man, especially the US Government. Got one 50 miles from me with a nice Big Casino that also has some Big Name Bands come in. Talked one night to one of the Elders who ran the Casino. The wife and I were just sitting on our Trucks Tailgate in the Parking lot and listening to the Band. He was walking by from the Casino to the Outdoor Band Area that had bleachers and he stopped to talk, he said you know the bands Free tonight, I said yea, but my Cooler of Ice Cold Beer is here. :) We talked for over half an hour. I suggested then they ought to hold some Cars Shows like Good Guys since they have a Huge Parking lot and put in an Airstrip for Small Planes, and a Camp Ground to attract more people. There in the process of doing some of that today. Might have to make another Road Trip over there to talk to the Elders. Be nice to see if it's feasible. I got at least (3) Airframe Manufacturers here in Iowa. They give away Cars, Bikes, Trucks, and I think even Boats. If you made Part 103 Ultralights you might even get some Sales from them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States

    How many People have went somewhere on Vacation and looked in the Phone Book to see if there was a Place that taught Sport Pilot close by? Hey, come down to Cancun, Mexico to Vintage Ultralights for (1-2) Day of Ultralight Training. Tour the Pyramids of Mexico while Flight Training. 8 Million People visit Branson, MO a Year. Don't know if there is any Indian Reservations close by though. The T-Bird Factory (Indy Aircraft today) 20 years ago use to charge $40 for a 20 min ($120hr) Introductory Flight in a T-Bird II. That $40 would be like $62 today! I forget what they charge in Branson for a 15-20min Helicopter ride, but it's not Cheap.
     
  8. Jun 29, 2019 #48

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ========================================================

    I believe even Floats and BRS has Weight limit limitations. I don't remember what it is though. With Battery Weight included and at 254lbs it only has about a 40min Flight Time.
     
  9. Jun 29, 2019 #49

    proppastie

    proppastie

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    need to make the top covering solar cells, have the empty weight less batteries about 160 lb. have 90 lb of batteries, and low enough drag for the solar cells to extend the flight time lots.

    as an example the original carbon dragon weight was 147 lb, with carbon and good engineering should be able to knock 20 lb off of that......you can do the math from here. a worthy project.
     
  10. Jun 29, 2019 #50

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    The magic that happened with the two seat exemption was because it bypassed the EA-B rules.
    The kit could be sold at any stage not just 49%, most needed 100 hours assembly.
    The pilot didn't need a medical! The pilot didn't need a biannual review! The aircraft didn't need a DAR fee! The owner didn't need an A&P to do inspections every year! Didn't need a FAA registration or state registration fee!
    This brought some 30,000 airframes. (15,000 Quicksilver, 4000 Challengers, CGS Hawks, etc)
     
  11. Jun 30, 2019 #51

    REVAN

    REVAN

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    If you read the regulation carefully, you will see that as long as you can demonstrate the ultralight meets the 254 pound requirement, you can put it on floats. There is no weight restriction implied on the floats unless the ultralight and floats are weighed together, in which case there is a 30 pound weight credit for each float.

    The key here is to meet the 254 pound requirement without the floats. If it can meet the 254 pound requirement with enough batteries to take off and land under its own power, then I don't see a legal reason why you couldn't pack more batteries in the floats to extend the range as desired.

    The FAA cannot have it both ways. If batteries are "structure" and electrons are "fuel", then the batteries in the floats are a part of the float and completely exempt from the 254 pound weight limit. The float can weigh as much as you want, so long as you can still meet the speed requirements for 103 with the floats attached. Five gallons of electrons has no definable meaning, so that can be ignored, I think. When the electrons are in the battery, they are part of the "structure". Fuel systems and lines are excluded. I guess maybe you can't have more than 5 gallons of electrons in the armature??? Even that's a stretch, but will likely never be an issue as that would be one massive electric motor to be putting in an ultralight.

    I think this is a viable legal path to electric ultralights. I say go for it!!!
     
  12. Jun 30, 2019 #52

    proppastie

    proppastie

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    When I ran a volunteer organization I found lots of people were good at saying what needs to be done. .....but very few wanted to do the work. .....I am guilty of that sometimes .
     
    BJC likes this.
  13. Jul 2, 2019 #53

    pwood66889

    pwood66889

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    "If a DIY battery pack, make it easy to jettison."
    But watch what happens to the Center of Gravity, n-cubed, or you could have an interesting day.

    "Buying, Fixing, and Flipping Real Estate is the best way. I just saw an Acreage Property that Sold at a Sheriff Sale a few months ago for $1,497 and the Person then listed it for $60,000. Sold it two weeks ago for $38,500 a $37,000 Profit."
    Proves the old adage, Armilite, "You make money when you buy it, not when you sell." I know I would not do well in Real Estate.
    "These Airframe Manufactures to circumvent the Rules, would be Smart to make more Sales, is if they just offered Free Ultralight Training..."
    Aviation businesses fail for business reasons, not aviation ones. With some thinking about fixed and variable costs, one could make it. It does take a manufacturing plant you could put in a 5-foot by 5-foot mini-storage while awaiting a sale.
    "Also, Indian Reservations in the USA, I don't think Falls under US Law or Rules."
    Now there's a thought, Mr. A! Some of those places have lots of flat for flying fields. And the moral high ground as well; better than a casino. I'm for it, and would love it if a First Nation person or persons pulled it off!! If you make that road trip, give that Elder my regards.
    "I forget what they charge in Branson for a 15-20min Helicopter ride, but it's not Cheap."
    Worked on swing-wings as my last gig, so I know why they are not Cheap! Thanks for the wisdom.

    "The magic that happened with the two seat exemption was because it bypassed the EA-B rules."
    Good point, BBer. Solved the chicken-and-egg problem by making training available.

    "The FAA cannot have it both ways."
    Erm... sorry, Revan. They can have it any way they like pretty much. It only takes a phone call to change policy, but literally "An Act of Congress" to change the law. I do agree to go for it.

    Sure would like one of them float `lectric jobbies here in NW FL, USA!
     
  14. Jul 2, 2019 #54

    henryk

    henryk

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    -iff involve vortex flow regime at take off phase (Cl >5 !),

    we can have much lower taxii speed=lower power of the engine...

    (see KASPERWING)
     
  15. Jul 6, 2019 #55

    bifft

    bifft

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    I wonder if they would go for a removable battery back that was 1155 in^3 (5 gal) in size?

    Just as a first pass I measured the lithium motorcycle battery I use in my plane. 5.75x3.375x5.625 inches. So 10.5 of these would fit in 5 gallons. It is labeled as 48Wh and weighs 2.4lbs on my bathroom scale.
    So 504Wh and 25.5 lbs. Hmm. Not enough for much of anything. Maybe a sustainer on a good glider.
     
  16. Jul 6, 2019 #56

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    I seriously doubt that the FAA would consider batteries to be part of the float weight, even if inside them. They've also said no to 5 gallons of batteries.
     
  17. Jul 6, 2019 #57

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    Do you have LSA sales numbers? I'd be interested in seeing how LSA sales numbers compare to GA light planes in general.
     
  18. Jul 6, 2019 #58

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    Agree, the FAA is not going to wake up one morning and say "we don't have anything to do today so let's change the Part 103 rules"

    However, if they are petitioned for a rule change by Joe Citizen, they have to address that. Also, they would have to address a petition for exemption.
     
  19. Jul 7, 2019 #59

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    The E-Lazair is circa 2011/2012, and is a great example of what can be done by a sound mind. But 8 years later still beating the drum about how the FAA views batteries and fuel?

    The problem (or limitation) for electric ultralights is battery energy density.

    If you want more "electric" air time you need to go experimental in the USA. Experimental glider makes a lot of sense for electric.
     
  20. Jul 21, 2019 #60

    Armilite

    Armilite

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