# e-Lazair Info!

Discussion in 'Electric Propulsion' started by Armilite, Jun 25, 2019.

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1. Jun 26, 2019

### PagoBay

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There is a builder who has been upgrading the Lazair to a self named Mark IV design. He is a big guy and beefed up the frame. No post on his blog since 2014 but he posted on another forum in 2017. I wrote him an email just now and if I get a reply, I will invite him into HBA. He was considering electric some while back. We exchanged some emails about his work in March 2017.
RMM - Guam

2. Jun 27, 2019

### Tiger Tim

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I always found that wording interesting in that they didn’t say no. It sure reads to me like individual builders are fine as long as they recognize the spirit of the rules but you’d probably invite trouble if you were manufacturing planes outside the written rules for sale. In other words, they want you to go out and enjoy flying, stop asking them for reasons you can’t.

And really, I can’t stress this enough: you Americans with Part 103 are allowed to fly human-carrying airplanes with fewer restrictions than riding a bicycle. Just let that really sink in for a second. It’s not that far fetched for the next change to the reg to just be its outright cancellation.

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3. Jun 27, 2019

### BBerson

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Ultralights in the U.S is almost dead. There was around 200 EAA Ultralight Chapters, now 17.
The Arlington Fly-in runway was like a zoo, now none.

4. Jun 27, 2019

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Perish the thought!!!

5. Jun 27, 2019

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Yes, the glory days are over, but the rules haven't changed. Same as why bell bottom pants aren't worn anymore....things come and go.

6. Jun 27, 2019

### BBerson

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The end of the trainer exemption in 2004 is what changed.

7. Jun 27, 2019

### Armilite

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I'm not trying to get an Exemption, or Clarification on the Part 103 Rules for adding Electric Motors and Batties for Part 103, he was! The more different Brains working on a Problem is a much better Solution than (1). Like I said, Talk to many People in the Kitplane Aircraft Business, other Manufactures, the EAA, an Aviation Lawyer, etc. That Letter is just a Good Example of How not to Ask the Government anything for Part 103. They only understand Facts & Simple Numbers, Clear Photo's, a Video they can watch, and their own FAA Accident DATA that we have 40+ Years of Info Now to Help Prove their Case.

It's not what You Think, or what I Think, it's about making these People in the FAA THINK, as most are Non-Aviation People today, to come to a Logical Conclusion in their MIND, that it's SAFE for the Public.

8. Jun 27, 2019

### Armilite

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You forget one thing, the FAA/City Hall/EAA/Congress all work there Members and some for US! They can be Fired, Voted out of Office, taken to Court. Part 103 Rules could be taken to Court over Discrimination alone against Chubby People and People with Disabilities! Running out of GAS is in the TOP (3) of all Airplane Accidents per the FAA! No other Air Craft, Boats, ATV's, Bikes, Go Karts, Hover Craft, etc., has these Stupid Restrictions! Every Planes Max Load set's what it can Carry. It's usually better to first TALK, Provide some Good Data, Photo's, Video's, then go the Court way. The Part 103 Rules as is, don't address Electric Motors with Batteries. A Good Letter should be Drafted and sent to the President(Trump at the moment), All Congressman Dem/Rep, to multiple People in the FAA to educate them on Part 103 and where we're at today, lost Jobs from these Rules, lost Manufactures, and with this New Technolgy. PUBLIC SAFETY should be Stressed at all times in the letter. Questions will arise, but you will maybe get some support from some of these People if their Educated! Brian can't do it alone. There is nothing better than seeing and having some Hands-on Time, I would also Invite them to something like Air Venter to see for themselves some of this stuff.

9. Jun 27, 2019

### proppastie

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While you are at it see if you can ban War, Poverty, and Injustice.

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10. Jun 27, 2019

### Armilite

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You are Correct, the Part 103 Rules haven't Changed in 40 years. These Manufactures got Lazy, People got Lazy, and everything (Homes, Cars, Planes, Guns, Boats, Food, Bikes, ATV's, Jet Skies, Snowmobiles, etc.) has all Doubled or Tripled in Price in the last 15 Years! So People don't have the extra spendable Income when their Wages maybe grow at 3% a year for Inflation. Go outside at 3:30pm once School is out, you hardly ever see a kid outside. How many of these 750+ at one-time Airframe Dealers have you seen have a Booth at your State, or County Fair, a Large Car Show, HeyDays, Air Venture or Sun & Fun, have any Ads on Craigslist, Barnstormers, eBay, different Auto Shopper Mags, or even have a Good Web Page, a Building with a Sales Floor, and a Good Sign, for People to find it? There are more Small Engines today than ever for these Part 103's. Since Rotax provided probably 85% of the Small 2 Stroke motors for Part 103, once they went after the Certified Engine Large Profit market 1993, they started dropping the Low Profit 2 Stroke market. Companies like Hirth, Simonini, Compact Radial, etc. started up to fill the Small Engine Void but were too late, many of these Part 103 Manufactures had already closed their doors. They also Priced themselves right out of the market! Example: Today, 2019 you can Buy an 18hp Electric Start Honda Clone for $300, a New JLO L252, 2 Stroke for a Garden Tiller for around$400. 252cc/7cc = 36hp@6500rpm with a Tuned Pipe. A Hirth F-36 15hp with Electric start & Re-Drive $2964.00. An ACE Belt Drive that could be converted for a JLO is$669. The Honda Clones and the JLO do need some upgrades and Avg $400 to$800 depending on what you want.

How many of these Hirths, Simonini, MKz do you really see today 2019 on Planes here in the USA?

The Phoneix 103 Sets the World Bar for USA Part 103 with a Hirth F-23, 50hp, 396lb useful load. Around $15,500. Does it need 50hp, No. The Aerolite 103 comes in 2nd with about a 366lb useful load. F-23 Weight: 78lbs, including reduction unit, full exhaust, and electric start or 71lbs with recoil start reduction unit and full exhaust. F-33 Weight: 35lbs including exhaust sys. - 40lbs W/re-drive - 45lbs W/elec. start! Both Engines with Mufflers! 11. Jun 27, 2019 ### pictsidhe ### pictsidhe #### Well-Known Member Joined: Jul 15, 2014 Messages: 6,408 Likes Received: 1,660 Location: North Carolina Currently, the usual reaction from the FAA when encountering an illegal ultralight that they are unhappy with is to tell it's owner to never fly it again. They then proceed to point out what the possible fines are should they ignore this free advice. So far, nobody has tested this... Currently the 282lb e-lazair is not legal within 103. Maybe the FAA will change the current rules, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll bust someone for being 30lb over, maybe they won't. But they do have the law on their side and an awfully big stick to threaten us mortals with. If you are going to appeal to the FAA, you'll need some reasoned arguments why they should change the rules. Looking for a lawyer-ese way around them will only get a response from their lawyers. Rest assured, they have some very good lawyers.a I believe that you can apply for a single aircraft exemption. I suspect that this is a lot more likely to be granted if you haven't been busted for flying an unlicensed aircraft. In the grand scheme of things, an extra 30lb to take the weight up to that of a fully dino-fuelled 103 is something a reasonable person may well think is OK. Ask for 100lb, they are a lot more likely to say 'No way, Jose". Don't use a volume argument, use motor energy and point out the weight is witin the limits for a dino-fuelled plane at take-off. Don't be rude, or superior. You pleading for leniency, they can just say no and it is the end of the matter. 600lb gross e-lazair? Uh, why? It is hard enough building a 400lb gross e-103. Strengthening it 50% and adding more wing area and span just subtracts even more batteries. 12. Jun 27, 2019 ### BBerson ### BBerson #### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter Joined: Dec 16, 2007 Messages: 11,648 Likes Received: 2,183 Location: Port Townsend WA I don't think EAA has any plans for ultralight review. An EAA Ultralight Counsel member told me. What EAA has done instead is to recommend that ultralight pilots ignore the weight rule, but don't violate the one seat or 5 gallon rule. They state this at ultralight forums and also one article in Sport Aviation a few years ago, by Dave Metheny. In which he states, if I recall, the FAA is ok with this. (I don't have the article now, but is in archive) It's an unfortunate path to make the sport die. 13. Jun 28, 2019 ### proppastie ### proppastie #### Well-Known Member Joined: Feb 19, 2012 Messages: 3,651 Likes Received: 1,048 Location: NJ Part 103 I hope will not die. It is the only place you do not have to have a license or inspection.....you can make whatever you want and no one will say no. Fly your craft legal ...prove it out then up the weight and license it light sport 14. Jun 28, 2019 ### Armilite ### Armilite #### Well-Known Member Joined: Sep 6, 2011 Messages: 3,022 Likes Received: 243 Location: AMES, IA USA ==================================== Your Correct, USA Part 103 Aircraft can only carry (1) Human with 5 Gallons of Gas that does Max 55 Knots / 63.2mph, but a Person can also jump on my stuff, a Boat with a 310+hp, 60 Gallons of Gas that does 68+mph, jump on a Snowmobile with 115+hp with 9 Gallons of Gas, a Motorcycle with 85+hp and 6 Gallons of Gas, in a Pickup Truck with 295+hp with 55 Gallons of Gas, my 90 Suburban was 195hp with 37 Gallons of Gas, there is Mini Bikes & Go Karts out there that are 36hp with 5 Gallons of Gas. There is ATV's, Hover Craft, Air Boats, etc., with High HP and many Gallons of Gas. Some with No License Required to Operate. There are No restrictions to Ride a Bicycle in the USA, some States, but not all, do require the Bike to be Registered with a License Sticker. Some States, have a Helmut Law for motorcycles, I haven't seen a Bicycle Helmut Law yet. Today, we are Taxed with needing a Permit or License on about everything you do. I wanted to put a New Water Heater in my House a while back,$50 Permit today, to have some Dufess come to my House, look at it 2 Seconds, then put a Sticker with a Date on it, and Leave. Now I built this House 35 Years ago, installed the Plumbing & Heating myself with No License or Permits for them. I did have to get a Building permit, I think it was $50 back then. Same scenario, only (2) Dufess came out Plumbing & Electrical Inspectors glanced at the Electrical and Plumbing, 5 min, and then signed the Permit and Left. Part 103 shouldn't be about Restrictions, but about Saftey. It is the only Vehicle in the USA that has a limit on how much Fuel you can carry, a Max Full Power Speed, and an Empty Weight Limit! As the letter says, the FAA treats it as a Sports Vehicle, they don't consider it an Airplane, so No License Required. I personally don't really have a Problem with the 5 Gallons or the Max Full Power Speed of 55 knots, it would be nice to a Safe 2hrs of Flight with a Reserve Safety Margin, say 7 Gallons. The Full Power Speed sets the Limit on how much HP you can really use, Avg is 25-35hp, the 5 Gallons sets a Limit on How Long you can Fly it, Avg is 1-2hrs depending on Engine used. I do have Problems mainly with the 254lbs Empty Weight. An Ultralight ought to be SAFE for anyone who wants to FLY, that means Chubby, Tall, Handicapped, etc People! There were many UNSAFE Designs made over the Years trying to stay under that 254lbs. Every Plane Design has a Max Load Limit. The Manufactures should not have to Build an Ultralight that only maybe 30% of the population can Fly. Example: The Lazair Ultralight. Max. takeoff weight: 450 lb (204 kg) Empty weight: 210 lb (95 kg) Useful load: 240 lb (109 kg) minus 5 Gallons 30 lb Is Good for a Max 210lb Pilot, even less if you count his GPS, Cell Phone, Go Pro Camera, Fishing Gear, Tent, Pocket Change, Pocket Knife, different Clothing he may be wearing that day, Wheel Chair, Crutches, etc! The Pheniox 103 Sets the World Bar for USA Part 103 at making the 254lbs with a Hirth 50hp with a 396lb Useful Load today! On Just 5 Gallons, some Ultralights can FLY 60-80+ Miles depending on Engine used. It's always a trade-off, Speed vs GPH use. Private Pilot License 40hrs. Sport Pilot License 20hrs. USA Part 103 Ultralight No License, No Training. I personally think everyone should have a Basic 10hr Ultralight License. Every Manufacture that makes a 2 Seat Version of their One Seat Ultralight ought to be able to give some Basic Flight Instruction, just as any Private/Sport Pilot or Flight School with the same Type Aircraft ought to be able to give Basic Ultralight Instruction. Like if I owned a T-Bird II which requires a Pilot License, I ought to be able to get a Special Trainers License to give Lessons for a T-Bird I that qualifies for Part 103. The FAA could have a Simple On-line Exam, and Basic Ground Inspection. It just takes a little thought and effort to put it into play. 15. Jun 28, 2019 ### proppastie ### proppastie #### Well-Known Member Joined: Feb 19, 2012 Messages: 3,651 Likes Received: 1,048 Location: NJ New Jersey bans go-ped motorized scooters. Careful about the safety argument . In the interest of safety the state can and has done just about anything. 16. Jun 29, 2019 ### Armilite ### Armilite #### Well-Known Member Joined: Sep 6, 2011 Messages: 3,022 Likes Received: 243 Location: AMES, IA USA ========================================================= Yes, it is, same for General Aviation, Kitplanes. When was the last Cessna 150/152, Piper Tomahawk, Euro-Coupe, etc. 2 Seaters, Built? People get Old, their Hobbies change, People's Income to Buy Things changes and these Ultralight and Kitplane Manufactures got real Lazy and did Poor Marketing. 17. Jun 29, 2019 ### Armilite ### Armilite #### Well-Known Member Joined: Sep 6, 2011 Messages: 3,022 Likes Received: 243 Location: AMES, IA USA =============================== Part 103 was Dead before that happened. Most of them People with the Trainer Exemption were just using the Loop Holes in the Rules to Fly a 2 Seater without having to get a Private Pilot License. Were there a few honest People doing the Training, Yes, but most weren't, and the Rules said for Training Only not Personal Flying. I worked with a guy whose wife worked for Challenger Aircraft years ago. He said they Sold most of their Planes over Seas. Back then they Grossed 1.6 Million in Sales. About$600,000 was from Spare Parts, Engine Rebuilds, etc.

Today, a Phenoix 103 is around $15,500, say a$5000 Profit Margin. Today, there are about 8 Billion People in the World to Sell too. If you Sold (50) Aircraft a Year = $250,000 and If you Sold 100 Aircraft a Year =$500,000 and If you Sold 150 Aircraft a Year = $750,000, and If you Sold 200 Aircraft a Year =$1,000,000.

About 20 Years ago I Tested a New T-Bird II that was $28,000. I ended up buying a used T-Bird I. Today that same T-Bird II is probably$35,000+.

Ultralight and two seat E-LSA training exemption.
August 19, 2009 ? When the sport pilot/light sport aircraft (SP/LSA) regulations were developed, it was envisioned that flight training for people who wanted to fly ultralight or ultralight-like aircraft would be conducted in aircraft certificated in the special light-sport (S-LSA) category.

As a bridge until sufficient S-LSA aircraft could be produced, the FAA allowed the use of transitioned two-place ultralight trainers certificated as experimental light-sport aircraft (E-LSA) to be used for compensated flight training until January 31, 2010 [per FAR 91.319(e)].

The FAA envisioned this timeframe would allow time for aircraft manufacturers to produce ultralight-like S-LSA in sufficient quantity to satisfy the need for ultralight training aircraft.

Many of these Trainer People didn't fill out the Paper Work, so they lost the Exemption. Did the FAA handle this the best way, No. But when they looked the other way for almost 30+ Years, I say we were lucky. Every Pilot and Manufacture knows if his Plane meets the Part 103 Rules or not.

"Unfortunately, such aircraft are not readily available in the marketplace. Presently only three manufacturers have produced an ultralight-like S-LSA - CGS Aviation Hawk, Higher Class Aviation, and M-Squared. In addition, the economy and lack of available financing have reduced the market for such planes. Currently 70 ultralight-like airplanes are listed on the EAA sport pilot flight instructor listing. Most, if not all, of these aircraft are E-LSA and may not to be used for compensated flight training after January 31, 2010.
Consequently, after that date there will not be an adequate number of ultralight-like aircraft available for compensated flight training. This will create a safety issue because people wanting to fly ultralights or ultralight-like aircraft will not be able to take flight training in ultralight-like aircraft.

To solve this problem, the FAA and EAA have discussed the issuance of a letter of deviation authorization (LODA) under 91.319(h). This action would allow the permanent use of E-LSA for training purposes with no timeline. It would improve safety due to increased available training vehicles and clear up confusion within the piloting community.

In addition, AeroSports Connection (ASC) has filed an exemption (FAA-2009-0344) requesting an extension of the current E-LSA trainer deadline until January 31, 2012.

The FAA has not identified a timeline for a final decision but is evaluating which method (an exemption versus the LODA process) would best address the need to offer continued ultralight training. In either case, it appears that E-LSA trainers will be allowed to be used for ultralight training following the upcoming January 31, 2010 deadline. No matter which remedy FAA chooses, owners will have to obtain a new airworthiness certificate and operating limitations.

Visit www.EAA.org for continuing updates on this story.
The above courtesy of http://eaa.org/news/2009/2009-08-19_ul.asp"

18. Jun 29, 2019

### BBerson

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I think it was CGS that said 95% of the pilots had a pilot certificate. So it wasn't really a safety issue when these trained pilots gave rides instead of "instruction". These certificated pilots were not interested in the low power true 103. Training was probably a fraction of the use.

Almost nobody can actually make money doing nothing but training now, so the LODA is useless.
The real market is sport flying. Pilots can get a license if needed but the roadblock is that LSA/ASTM rules are keeping the price high and making the envisioned <87mph one or two seat LSA rare.

19. Jun 29, 2019

### Armilite

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That's easy, Politicians and Big Busines starts 99% of the Wars, cause Poverty with Low Minimum Wages, Poor HealthCare, Poor Working conditions while making Billion dollar profits, and Politicians cause Injustice by not making Fair Laws and Enforcing them. Since a large portion of the People isn't Smart enough to even Vote, in the USA about 340 Million now, how many really Voted in the last Election, less than 50%, let alone those who Voted, didn't Vote out these same Corrupt Politicians who then let these Corporations do what they want. Usually, the only way to change that is with a Civil War.

20. Jun 29, 2019

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