Discussion Thread: The design of a tailless flying wing

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by Aerowerx, Oct 8, 2015.

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  1. Feb 15, 2017 #461

    Norman

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    Links are in posts #174 & 175 of this thread
     
  2. Feb 16, 2017 #462

    skysoarer

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    Hi Aeroworx,
    Thanks for this.
    Starting to understand that this bell lift distribution is great apart from the fact it works best at one cruise speed.

    Have found some superb pictures of an albatross that seems to show feathers indicating a stall well inboard of its wingtips. To me this demonstrates the fact well.
    I do not use XLFR 5 and not sure I would be able to !! Something else to learn !
    Look forward to more discussion.
     
  3. Feb 16, 2017 #463

    Aerowerx

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    XFLR5 can be a bit intimidating and frustrating to learn. Then you will find that occasionally it will do strange things all on its own, which I have never figured out.

    Even with that, it is one of the better free programs out there
     
  4. Feb 22, 2017 #464

    skysoarer

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    Hi Norman, apologies for the delay but am very grateful for your help.
    Have to say that I think I am starting to get this but slowly!
    Have you heard of Bob Hoey with his RC birds ? He was onto this proverse yaw and mentions it in a paper. I think it was 1992. The paper is here http://www.johnnyarmstrong.com/soaring-birds-9/birdmodelfeatures-pdf/
    He was using 'tip feathers' at different angles of attack for the ' turkey buzzard' and I think rotating tips on the seagull.
    I think the same as Hill used on his pterodactyl, a swept flying wing monoplane with no vertical fins and I think only wingtip elevons but this was from 1928 ! Does anyone know if this aircraft produced proverse yaw? If this was the only control system then I guess it had to. It seems to be the same system on the Short SB 4 from the 1950's, which Hill was involved with, but this had a fin.
    When you think of the early pioneers like Dunn and his flying wing Biplane which I think was 1912, that's over 100 years of flying wings!
     
  5. Mar 29, 2017 #465

    cblink.007

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    My group is doing a pure all-wing 2-seat LSA kit design. We just started construction of our first prototype we are calling the "Phoenix". Drop us a line at www.lvaero.wordpress.com . We can definitely assist!
     
  6. Apr 2, 2017 #466

    ThadBeier

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    Best of luck! Everything about this design I like -- simple, easy to build, inexpensive, efficient. I presume that cost ($15K) doesn't include the engine...because it's about that same cost.

    If you're really building this, please create a new thread to show its progress. You'll have a lot of fans.
     
  7. Apr 2, 2017 #467

    pictsidhe

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    The plan form suggests BSLD?
     
  8. Apr 2, 2017 #468

    Norman

    Norman

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    Here's some more detailed stuff about Bob Hoey's birds.


    I don't know much about Hill's designs. It says something about the success of his ideas that he managed to get financial backing to keep working on the concept for 20 years though (he was the guy behind the Short Sherpa). However it may also says something that nobody carried on with his work after he retired.

    A tail makes the control and stability problems easier to solve and a fuselage is a convenient place to store cargo. Those things make developing a flying wing that has any useful capacity expensive. Now even a hermit like me can have the equivalent to a Cray XMP on his desk and free analysis software similar to what the B-2 was designed with in the late '70s so the development costs have come way down.
     
  9. Apr 2, 2017 #469

    Aerowerx

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    Interesting. I have seen this web site before, but never noticed something.

    Just like on a real Vulture, the tip feathers have some wash-out. To quote from Hoey's web page:
    By careful observation I have seen this on Turkey Vultures, which is the only bird in this area that flys "slow and low" enough to get a good look at the wing tips. I speculate that other birds also have negative twist at the tips, but have been unable to observe it.
     
  10. Jul 31, 2017 #470

    Autodidact

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    Mitchell Superwing:

    Mitchellsuperwing.jpg
     
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  11. Aug 1, 2017 #471

    Norman

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  12. Aug 1, 2017 #472

    Aerowerx

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  13. Aug 1, 2017 #473

    Autodidact

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    I stumbled across that in the March, 1948 edition of Flying. I have seen several photos of things that I didn't know existed; I thought I remembered you saying something about an obscure Mitchell wing, so I posted it up on the off chance that this was it - scroll down to pg. 42: https://books.google.com/books?id=-...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

    1946 to 1949 must have been halcyon days (in SoCal anyway...).
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
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  14. Aug 1, 2017 #474

    Aerowerx

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    Maybe Mitchell built more that one?

    From what I have read, he was quite prolific.
     
  15. Aug 1, 2017 #475

    Autodidact

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    What I'd like to know is what color it was. Was it painted red or some other dark color? Or was it glorious dark varnished wood and fabric? What a sight it would have been sitting out on the lake bed. It was huge, does anyone know what happened to it?
     
  16. Aug 1, 2017 #476

    Autodidact

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    Norman, is the wing in the fuzzy picture the same as NX18992? The TWITT Mitchell history page has NX18992's completion in 1946, and the fuzzy photo is said by Mark Granich/Bob Heidemann to have been taken in 1933-34?
     
  17. Aug 2, 2017 #477

    Norman

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    If Mr Granich didn't get the date wrong and they're not pictures of the same plane later one is clearly a derivative. Whatever the case may be you should send your info to TWITT. There's a "contact us" button on the index page.
     
  18. Aug 2, 2017 #478

    Norman

    Norman

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    Ooo look at the shadow of NX18992. Definitely something on the trailing edge of the outboard 1/2. Could be a chord extension but also be an external elevon. That funny little joggle at the tip is exactly what you see in the U-2's shadow.
     
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  19. Aug 2, 2017 #479

    BJC

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    "Grasshopper, you must look into the shadows as well as the sunshine to see the truth."


    BJC
     
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  20. Aug 2, 2017 #480

    Autodidact

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    Nice detective work; I had looked and looked and never thought of looking at the shadow, doh! Now that you've pointed that out, if you look at the lower trailing edge of the near tip fin you can see the outer end of the elevon (or its ghost) pretty clearly, and if you draw a line from its trailing edge along the bottom of the wing where it should be, you can see some faint outlines of what looks to me is the doctored removal of the elevons from the photo! Hmmmm...

    Another thing, the black (dark colored) coupe next to the tent looks like about 1937 or '38 vintage, and the pickup in the background looks like it's later than 1934 as well - other gearheads can corroborate I think. I think those two pictures were taken on the same day at the same location. Except that the nose wheel appears to be missing in the fuzzy pic...
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017

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