# Design to attract new homebuilders

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by BJC, Apr 4, 2016.

### Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

1. Apr 21, 2016

### Himat

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
May 5, 2011
Messages:
2,752
632
Location:
Norway
I have not re read all posts, but I do not think someone have put it this way before:

Why?
Think about what flying toy many young (and not that young) people play with. Quite some of them assemble their multicopter and tune the controllers themselves too. Some modify ready made vehicles. The next step is then something to not fly first person view, but actually fly in person. Quite some airplane builders aspired from model airplane building. Tomorrow it might be full size multicopters.

BJC likes this.
2. Apr 22, 2016

### choppergirl

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Jan 31, 2015
Messages:
1,508
515
Location:
AIR-WAR.ORG ★★☠★★
My last fruitless 2 cents on this thread Everybody here is locked in some kind of bizarre mental paradigm box, thinking Millennials want and can afford this, when in fact, we could probably barely hope to afford this. You brilliant old wise self taught aeronautical engineers... flush with experience, technical knowledge, cash, extra engines hoarded and squirreled away, and ample hangar space... just... don't... get it.... like they got it... in 1981. It's all about the money, we do not have. Choppergirl, punching out of this flat spin of a thread... and I'm taking my generation with me... Mayday, mayday...

p.s. my generation's design to attract new home builders already happened, while you were asleep at the wheel.
it was called a quad copter...

Do this in your $50K Rans... You own the world, we just live in it Last edited: Apr 22, 2016 3. Apr 22, 2016 ### Little Scrapper ### Little Scrapper #### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter Joined: Jan 3, 2014 Messages: 5,249 Likes Received: 3,153 Location: Wisconsin .......says the little kid who isn't flying, has no airplane, and no job. Matt G. and BJC like this. 4. Apr 22, 2016 ### Himat ### Himat #### Well-Known Member Joined: May 5, 2011 Messages: 2,752 Likes Received: 632 Location: Norway Still the kid point at what experience quite some have at what flying for fun is. [video=youtube;70pusNNunMA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70pusNNunMA[/video] Look at the video. In the 1950'ies and 1960'ies there was a lot of young men with fighter plane experience. They may favour Midget Mustangs, Cassuts and RVs. Today there are not that many kids that have got to fly a fighter plane, but first person view drone racing like this they have.Why should not a man carrying multicopter be desireable? Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2019 5. Apr 22, 2016 ### Dana ### Dana #### Moderator Joined: Apr 4, 2007 Messages: 8,457 Likes Received: 2,855 Location: CT, USA Because a multicopter is an optimum cheap design solution for one particular point (small autonomous or semi-autonomous VTOL UAV with limited payload, speed, and duration) based on available technology (small lipo batteries, electric motors, and cheap electronics). It's not an optimum design solution for a larger man carrying aircraft. Dana nucleus likes this. 6. Apr 22, 2016 ### BJC ### BJC #### Well-Known Member Joined: Oct 7, 2013 Messages: 8,901 Likes Received: 5,750 Location: 97FL, Florida, USA ... just didn't sit around complaining; we went to work and achieved what we could ... Starting salary for an auto mechanic in Augusta is$33,279.

More options can be viewed here Entry Level Salaries - Salary.com

BJC

Toobuilder likes this.
7. Apr 22, 2016

### ScaleBirdsScott

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Feb 10, 2015
Messages:
918
581
Location:
Uncasville, CT
Young people like myself are in all kinds of binds but I don't presume it's a unique trait to have some kind of struggle. As it is, being stuck at a crummy spot in the money curve is going to color our options but it's not a good excuse. There are ways to do things and I won't get into politics about it but, I think many groups that could pursue aviation if they really wanted to, just aren't wanting to and so it isn't worth the costs. But I do look around and see people pursuing their hobbies whether fishing or motorcycles or videogames or paintball or cars or guns or what-not. Those things can all be money holes and while you can get a really, really nice gun for the cost of even the cheapest aero engine: getting a PPL over time is within the budget of most individuals willing to eat light and work hard even today.

Attracting people enough for some to be interested enough to go through enough pain to get enough out of it; the current methods aren't enough.

Topaz knows what's up, it's marketing. Eventually a few young aero engineers, tired of working on jet liners and subs and space ships that won't take them to space, will get the bright idea to check out this kitplane thing and will get their friends who make dope youtube videos to help market it, and key it into all the modern websites and they'll pull an Icon. Maybe that's what I hope to do if I'm halfway lucky. But it'll start happening here and there I hope and maybe the new generation will find the right hooks to kickstart things if the current generations don't beat them to it. But whether that leads to true growth, no way to predict.

8. Apr 23, 2016

### Himat

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
May 5, 2011
Messages:
2,752
632
Location:
Norway
It might well be that a multicopter is not the optimal configuration for a man carrying flying vehicle. On the other hand, quite some homebuilt airplanes are rather compromised designs. (Gross underpowered, flies slow or lands fast… Mostly things that could be cured with money.) A man carrying multicopter will have operational and performance limitations, and will that way fit well in the light aircraft group.

Head in the clouds likes this.
9. Apr 23, 2016

### Kiwi303

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Jul 22, 2015
Messages:
253
99
Location:
En Zed. Aka The Shire.
Hang on... Isn't the Moller Skycar essentially a Multicopter?

Four corner mounted rotating ducted fan engine nacelles?

Ducted fans rather than open blades...

I understand his market now and why it has taken so long... he's been waiting for Millenials to grow up and become old enough to have jobs and money to market his Skycar to!

[/humour]

Himat likes this.
10. Apr 23, 2016

### PTAirco

Joined:
Sep 21, 2003
Messages:
3,421
954
Location:
Corona CA

That site also lists flight instructors earning $95,678. I'm rolling on the floor laughing mao... 11. Apr 23, 2016 ### BJC ### BJC #### Well-Known Member Joined: Oct 7, 2013 Messages: 8,901 Likes Received: 5,750 Location: 97FL, Florida, USA That certainly would draw people into instructing if it were a fact. As usual, the devil is in the details. Note the statement on the page for flight instructors, below: I have a neighbor who is a senior check airman, who does much better than the$95,000.

BJC

12. Apr 24, 2016

### Kiwi303

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Jul 22, 2015
Messages:
253
99
Location:
En Zed. Aka The Shire.
ATPL Flight Instructors for ETOP twins and 4 engine jets maybe...

Not the local grass strip bum with a CFL.

13. Apr 24, 2016

### dcstrng

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Oct 17, 2010
Messages:
912
321
Location:
VA or NoDak
Yep; while certainly not the only obstacle, our expectations/vision is undoubtedly one of the largest. Been watching this thread for awhile and still not sure what to make of it, but I'm reasonably convinced that if building a Sonex (nice, and certainly one of the most affordable) or a Zenith (the Chevy of kits) or an RV (highly regarded but outa my league, I don't dream that big...), let alone a Lancair, etc., etc., etc., is the test of success, then I fear we're doomed...

Seems like a bunch of us geezers pine for the old days -- phooey, other than trends of personal interest I really don't think it is a generation thing today any more than a lot of other things... the real economy in the 1950s/60s was struggling, my folks never drove a new car until us kids were gone and most of the post WW-II mechanical hobbies of the day were home grown -- very low-tech even by the standards of the day. If you look at hotroding, bikes (whether desert sleds, ring-a-ding trail-bikes or chops/bobbers), back-yard boatbuilding or homebuilt aircraft -- mostly they were all very low-budget affairs, not at all like the poser machinery of today... no kits to speak of, few folks with any serious formal training and despite the lore not too many left-over jet-jockeys (only one I ever knew didn't fly anything but a desk at the bank where I worked briefly...).

Folks weren't building Tailwinds, Cougars, Flybaby's EAA Biplanes and the like to compete with Skylanes C310s and the like, they were built simply to fly... that's it... The little airport where I took lessons near Dayton Ohio (still there, by the way) had all sorts of homebuilding, but Avid/KitFox wasn't even on the scene yet -- there weren't any Chuck Yeagers there that I knew of, just Billy-Bobs... yes there were a few GPU power plants around to help in some situations, but maintaining a used Stearman, Navion or Waco never was cheap and that wasn't the goal so long as I cojuld tell... as long as the goal is "to fly," that is achievable -- indeed today there are many advantages today -- but how we light the fire with a design, that I'm ignorant of...

14. Apr 24, 2016

### Little Scrapper

#### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter

Joined:
Jan 3, 2014
Messages:
5,249
3,153
Location:
Wisconsin
If you're on Facebook check out......

1.) 88 Charlies Inc
&
2.) Learn Build Fly

They seem to be doing it right.

15. Apr 24, 2016

### fredoyster

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Mar 21, 2012
Messages:
333
103
Location:
Monterey Bay, CA
Not much time for windy replies to the thread today, I am headed back out to the garage to build some more. I think the recent discussions with Choppergirl may give us more insight than we would like to admit. I can tell you that I get a very similar message, on the other end of the economic scale, from the people I have been working with on new aircraft types. Autoreply has it exactly right: the problem is in our minds. There are two related obstacles that we have not overcome: virtualization and speed.

1. People (especially the pool of 'new homebuilders' we would like to see) are increasingly happy with a virtualized experience. For many, a quadcopter with a FPV camera and goggles is near enough to flying that the local airports and EAA chapters are dead.

2. The same people have become so accustomed, through aggressive marketing, to having things happen instantly, that they are unwilling to spend more than a few dozen hours gaining proficiency at something.

If we want to attract new homebuilders there is a marketing exercise first; people are concentrating now on sales exercises and it's long past the time for that. Who is defining a new market that can actually be reached, and that holds its own against other competing technologies?

16. Apr 24, 2016

### Little Scrapper

#### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter

Joined:
Jan 3, 2014
Messages:
5,249
3,153
Location:
Wisconsin
Naaaa, there's no substitute for the real thing. Ya get kids around airplanes and they get excited. Just gotta step up and make it happen. It's not complicated.

17. Apr 24, 2016

### Little Scrapper

#### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter

Joined:
Jan 3, 2014
Messages:
5,249
3,153
Location:
Wisconsin
People are doing this, let's not over think this on dreamt up data. Every photo is within 40 miles of my home.

Matt G. and steveair2 like this.
18. Apr 25, 2016

### Wayne

#### Well-Known Member

Joined:
Jan 15, 2013
Messages:
402
496
Location:
Chicago, IL
Scrappy - is this happening at an EAA Chapter? Let me know how to get in touch with them if you are able. EAA 461 (my chapter) is increasingly getting youth/community involvement and what you are showing here is really good stuff.

19. Apr 25, 2016

### Little Scrapper

#### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter

Joined:
Jan 3, 2014
Messages:
5,249
3,153
Location:
Wisconsin
Look up "88 Charlies inc" on Facebook. Multiple chapters, S.E Wisconsin.

Look up "Learn. Build. Fly." On Facebook. Chapter 640 in Wausau Wisconsin building a modified Buttercup with kids.

Chapter 27 is doing "Teen to Flight" program with an RV. I believe it's also on Facebook. Connecticut I think?

Wayne likes this.
20. Apr 25, 2016

Joined:
Jan 3, 2014
Messages:
5,249