Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. Jun 9, 2016 #61

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    The absolute all time most fun I've ever had (with my clothes on) was flying ultralights low across fields and having to climb to get over the barbed wire fences! Going around the trees instead of over was a plus. I even know a guy who used to fly his ultralight under bridges....must have been a blast. And, in the proper airplane, all this is relatively safe. If the engine quits you land in the beans at 30 mph. Leaving ultralights for faster, heavier planes took that fun away.
     
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  2. Jun 9, 2016 #62

    Little Scrapper

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    As an aviation community we should do a better job promoting safe things like flying under bridges.
     
  3. Jun 9, 2016 #63

    radfordc

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    Living to 100 and dying peacefully may sound like a good thing...unless you also spend the last 10-15 of those years lying in that same bed and having to have someone help you wipe you're butt.

    I don't want to be at the end of my time regretting not doing something because "it was too scary/dangerous". Every time I fly I'm a little scared because I know that their is some higher risk of an untimely end compared to mowing the lawn.
     
  4. Jun 9, 2016 #64

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    Like this: https://youtu.be/Jfu_tXC4mA8
     
  5. Jun 9, 2016 #65

    Little Scrapper

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    Likewise, flying under a bridge in a ultralight may seem great until you realize the thoughts of gracefully landing in a bean field come to an abrupt end as you clip a tree. And those last 10-15 years in a wheelchair drinking food through a straw because of egoistic thinking will seem like an eternity.

    No thanks, promoting something this ridiculous on a forum where there's youngsters trying to learn about flying opportunities is ridiculous.

    It's all safe in our head sitting on a computer until real life takes over. I realize some people can't get excited from just flying, they have to resort to unsafe tactics to get a "high".....but let's not call it safe or smart. That doesn't make sense.
     
  6. Jun 9, 2016 #66

    Little Scrapper

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    Comparing Steve Jones to a hillbilly on a ultralight? I can see the resemblance, it's virtually the same thing.
     
  7. Jun 9, 2016 #67

    radfordc

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    I reverently bow you your wise counsel. No more talk of exciting flying adventures here.
     
  8. Jun 9, 2016 #68

    don january

    don january

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    Let's face it guy's. Taking a UL and trying to do loop's, roll's is bad risk management. Bad enough to worry about a 10 mph wind. I've watched a plane drill in after hitting a guide wire flying race track with a lost pilot that was a mentor to me in flying. The last thing I want to do is relive that image. I only listen to report's connected to the type of plane I built and fly and god know's there is enough to read. To start a thread that chase's others misfortune in my opinion has nothing to do with this forum. We should keep focused on building and flying not what one's crash and wy. I think we should only talk about what we think caused a crash and let each person make his own decision. To me that's the learning curve. Don
     
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  9. Jun 9, 2016 #69

    Turd Ferguson

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    Again, if you look at human factors, rarely is an accident the product of a single mistake. On the other hand, in aviation, audits show that numerous mistakes are made on any given flight yet those flight are completed without an accident. What gives? Why are some errors more or less forgiving than others?

    With regard to accidents, I think it's been shown that concluding an accident investigation when the human culprit is identified and punishing that individual does little to improve safety. Once investigations went beyond blame, a better understanding of human errors evolved. Better understanding leads to improved design and process which prevents future occurrences. I can't imagine inserting a human operator into an exponentially growing dynamic environment with increasingly complex machinery, telling them not to screw up and accepting the results as satisfactory. While we like to think pilots are supermen, the data show otherwise.

    While I initially chuckled at Threat and Error Management (TEM) in principle, I can see now that it empowers any pilot to fly more defensively. As anyone knows, you can't do a job without the proper tools. This is a really good set of tools for the pilot's toolbox. I notice the older I get, despite my logbook getting fatter, I'm more interested in flying defensively.

    For the pilots that shrug that off, those who prefer a self-designed adrenaline rush, those who want to be aggressive and fly on the offensive side of the coin, knock yourself out. For now, "Pilots failure to ____________" is still included in the summary of accident investigations. And thanks in advance for increasing my insurance premiums.
     
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  10. Jun 9, 2016 #70

    BJC

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    I wouldn't fly if it scared me.


    BJC
     
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  11. Jun 9, 2016 #71

    Dan Thomas

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    There are mistakes and then there are "mistakes" that aren't really mistakes. The English language is severely limited in some aspects. Google "The Four Loves" sometime to see what I mean. The Greeks had more and better words for a lot of stuff.

    A good pilot who makes a mistake will usually recognize it and correct it before it becomes serious. He will also have the attitude that he doesn't know it all and has to stay diligent and learn some more. He knows that ego is dangerous and complacency is always never too far off.

    Another pilot might make a "mistake" that was no mistake. It was quite deliberate. He flew VFR into IMC. Or he tried aerobatics without training and in an airplane not intended for aerobatics. He stretched his fuel because he didn't want to stop 50 miles short of home to refuel. He pulled a buzz job or hedge-hopped across country. He was showing off. Or succumbed to get-home-itis. Or got the cheapest annual inspection he could find.

    Those aren't mistakes. They are symptoms of poor judgement, a disregard for the law, a fat ego, or a basic cheapness in a sport that doesn't tolerate corner-cutting. The bigger problem with a guy like that is the effect it can have on his friends or family (he kills them or leaves them grieving) and on the rest of us (he or his estate sues everyone in sight, raising the costs and regulatory burden enormously). You really can't do what you'd like without regard for its effect on everyone else.
     
  12. Jun 9, 2016 #72

    Little Scrapper

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    Hey man, you don't owe me nothing. I feel a man who takes to the sky represents more than just one person, your decisions represent the aviation industry. You're actions speak to the general public. So no, this isn't about me. We are stewards to the GA portion of the industry.

    The reason flying under a bridge with an ultralight seems like an adventure is because it's dangerous, key word being danger. If it wasn't dangerous you wouldn't want to do it right?

    I didn't do it hard to imagine I'm in the minority in thinking that is pure stupidity.
     
  13. Jun 9, 2016 #73

    Daleandee

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    Tony Spicer (of Sonex, RV, and now Panther fame) used to do what he called a "sheep clearing pass" to make sure nothing was on the runway. We have a few airports here close to the lakes and sometimes the birds need to be displaced before landing.

    Dale
    N319WF
     
  14. Jun 9, 2016 #74

    radfordc

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    When you're doing something that is inherently "dangerous" it's good to be looking for the gremlins that are about to get you. Call it what you will, it's the little voice in your head that says "don't f*** this up!" I always felt the same when I was skydiving and when riding a motorcycle on public roads.

    Here is a good article that discusses some of this issue: https://gliderrider.today/why-cant-we-get-a-handle-on-this-safety-thing/

    [This article first appeared in Hang Gliding magazine in 1998. It has since become one of the most referred-to and circulated monographs in the recent history aviation. Reprinted here from www.willswing.com -Ed.]

    If I were to ask you to characterize the view that the “uninformed public” has of hang gliding, what might you say? You might say that they think of hang gliding as a “death sport,” or, at the very least, an “unreasonably unsafe activity.” You might say that they think hang glider pilots are “thrill seekers” who recklessly disregard the inherent risks in what they do. You might say that they are under the mistaken impression that hang gliders are fragile, unstable flying contraptions blown about by the winds and only partially, and inadequately under the control of the occupant.

    If confronted by this attitude in a spectator, how might you respond? You might say that once upon a time, in the very early days of the sport, it was true that gliders were dangerous, and pilots behaved in an unsafe manner. You might point out that in recent years, however, the quality of the equipment, the quality of training, and the level of maturity of the pilots have all improved immeasurably. You might point to the fine aerodynamic qualities of today’s hang gliders, the rigorous certification programs in place for gliders, instructors, and pilots, and you might give examples of the respectable occupations of many hang glider pilots; doctors, lawyers, computer programmers. You might make the claim that hang gliding today is one of the safer forms of aviation, and is no more risky than many other action oriented sports.

    Later on, you might laugh about the ignorant attitude of the “woofo.” Or, you might wonder, “Why is it, after all these years, that the public still doesn’t understand? Why can’t we educate them about what hang gliding is really like, and how safe and reasonable it really is?”

    So now let me ask you another question. What if they’re right? What if they’re right and we’re wrong? And what if I can prove it to you?
     
  15. Jun 9, 2016 #75

    radfordc

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    Doing dangerous things is how humans act....swimming with apex predators, cave diving, motorcycle riding, skydiving, and flying, too. Of course there are degrees of danger, and having certain skills help mitigate the danger. Some people think that just flying a small plane is "pure stupidity", but we all do it for reasons that make sense to us. Some even hone those skills to the point that "stunt flying" becomes their focus and livelihood.

    I would never encourage someone to do something dangerous or "stupid", but I also don't feel that I'm their keeper and have any responsibility for their actions. Even a "bad example" is an example.
     
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  16. Jun 9, 2016 #76
    I've been a programmer since the late sixties & I'm happy to say that no-one has ever accused me of being (yeauugh) "respectable".
     
  17. Jun 9, 2016 #77

    bmcj

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    When someone says they'd rather die doing something they love, they are not expressing a desire to die as a result of their hobby, they are stating that they will not give up their hobby and live a mundane life just because there are risks that come with that hobby.
     
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  18. Jun 9, 2016 #78

    BBerson

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  19. Jun 9, 2016 #79

    Little Scrapper

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    Come on now, obviously nobody WANTS to die doing it. That's not what we were saying.
     
  20. Jun 9, 2016 #80

    BJC

    BJC

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    No, they do not. But a pilot always has the authority to abort a landing and go around if the runway is found not to be safe to land on.


    BJC
     

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