Crashes in the News - Thread

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addaon

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Also in this specific case, if the meaning was "going around", something like "going around, runway heading at 200 ft" would be /much/ more valuable for avoidance that just "on the go" or "going around". And of course "going around, 20 right of runway heading, 200 ft, will continue upwind offset right" would maximize avoiding the conflict as well.
 

Vigilant1

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A week before, the C-340 pilot did another straight in to this busy airport. He flew it at a more normal approach speed of about 100kts.

I'm starting to think maybe the C-340 pilot thought he was configured but was not. It explains a lot of things. Maybe he set his normal descent power setting, and in this clean configuration 180 knots was the result. I know this sounds unlikely, but it happens. The plane just won't slow down and maybe you've even tried reducing power and still are too fast. Eventually, hopefully, you figure out something is up, re-check everything, see no green gear down lights, and the " OH, NO !" alarm goes off in your head.
It happened to, uh "someone I know really well". Just for 20-30 seconds, but pretty embarrassing. It could have been much worse for "him" .
 
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Pops

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A week before, the C-340 pilot did another straight in to this busy airport. He flew it at a more normal approach speed of about 100kts.

I'm starting to think maybe the C-340 pilot thought he was configured but was not. It explains a lot of things. Maybe he set his normal descent power setting, and in this clean configuration 180 knots was the result. I know this sounds unlikely, but it happens. The plane just won't slow down and you've got the throttle all the way back. Eventually, hopefully, you figure out something is up, re-check everything, see no green gear down lights, and the " OH, NO !" alarm goes off in your head.
It happened to, uh "someone I know really well". Just for 20-30 seconds, but pretty embarrassing. It could have been much worse for "him" .
You may be correct. It all just doesn't add up right. That would be an answer why he didn't get the airplane slowed down.
 

Bob H

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I fly out of a high altitude, uncontrolled airport in mtns of S. Calif where we get all kinds of traffic from Marine V-22, Cessna 300s, biz jets, ultralights, GA planes, Cobra Gunships, IFR and mostly VFR flights. To keep all this traffic safe, we communicate and keep egos away.
If a fast IFR flight is announcing from10 nm out and there are slow planes in the pattern, the IFR plane is expected to join the pattern and not cut in front of established planes and we tell him to do so. When helio gunships and Marines or Navy trainers are approaching the airport, they are also expected to conform to the pattern and they do so without any hassle or debate. If the pattern is empty, they can do as they wish. Often a slow GA plane will give way to a faster plane with eveyone's verbal cooperation.We avoid conflicts with common sense and not pushing our weight around because we can. The system works because pilots show consideration for all the other planes around the airport.
 

Vigilant1

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.We avoid conflicts with common sense and not pushing our weight around because we can. The system works because pilots show consideration for all the other planes around the airport.
There's a lot to that. Rather than break into warring tribes, it is good to keep in mind that, as aviators, we are members of a tiny club. We have a lot of common background and experience. A career 747 captain could sit next to a long-time Cub pilot and they could swap stories for hours, and enjoy it.
And, of course everyone in that traffic pattern shares an even more important common interest: They all want to go home safely to their families.

"Cooperate and graduate". Or something like that.
 
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jedi

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You may be correct. It all just doesn't add up right. That would be an answer why he didn't get the airplane slowed down.
So if the gear and flaps are up in the wreckage that would settle it but that is not likely and still would not prove that that was the case as a last minute (or less) configuration change is quite likely.
 

PatrickW

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Something I don't understand - the 152 pilot said he sees the 340 "behind" him.

How is that possible...?

Could it be that what he was looking at was the latest position of the 340 as shown on a device displaying ADSB info...?

- Pat
 

Vigilant1

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So if the gear and flaps are up in the wreckage that would settle it but that is not likely and still would not prove that that was the case as a last minute (or less) configuration change is quite likely.
I think we'll know about his configuration, and my hunch is that his gear, and maybe his flaps, were never put down.
This is California after all. There will be folks that saw the plane, 200 blurry dash cam videos, Ring doorbell videos, CCT from 7-11 parking lot cameras, etc. ;)
Given the apparently short time between the awareness of the C-340 pilot to the conflict and the impact, I don't think a last moment reconfiguration is likely. If the gear is up in the wreckage, it was probably never down.
 
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Vigilant1

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Something I don't understand - the 152 pilot said he sees the 340 "behind" him.

How is that possible...?

Could it be that what he was looking at was the latest position of the 340 as shown on a device displaying ADSB info...?

- Pat
Well, at that point the C-340 was at the 6 o'clock of the C-152. They were both on final.
The back window of the C-152 isn't worth much, but I suspect the C-340 would still be visible through it. The 340 is pretty big from the front (fuselage, two engine nacelles, two tip tanks), strobes, beacon, and would likely have his landing light on (IF his gear was down). If the 152 has his flaps down (probable) then the "deck angle" would also be such that I think another plane on the same glidepath would be within the field of vision offered by that window.

Peering through that back window isn't something I'd want to be doing on short final, though.
 
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Tom DM

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What would a C 150 in the pattern be doing on a one mile final at 500 feet. At most he should be on a half mile final and 300 feet. Ideal would be 1/4 mile and 250 feet or greater. Base leg should be between 1/4 and 1/2 mile from the runway end lights. Source, AIM and other FAA reading material.

Note! For 4redwings and interested others, the edit to complete post # 5,717 concernng who has right of way on final is complete. Additional discussion via PM is welcome if needed.


Without checking the traffic pattern at Watsonville: possible that the deposed pattern is indeed a mile from the numbers in which case an instructor or student pilot "wanting to fly super-safe" will obey to those data. In Germany those long patterns are often in place to not overfly a village or such.

Some airfields have traffic patterns that the space shuttle could use, some pilots (often performance aircraft but not often flown) extend those patterns then an extra bit. As my bird is quite slow, I am always quite alert when other trafic is in the pattern. I will not engage final unless I see and know where the others are.

The crash reminds heavily of an experience years back at EBKT where a business jet flew in final under a C152, piloted by a student pilot on (what we call) his big navigation before formal exam. The jet jockey was in his right, has done all the calls, received all clearings. The student pilot was just overwhelmed with info, had a mayor scare when the jet passed under and then appeared in front of him. The tower commander, red hot of anger, and I both realized what happened. Considerable diplomacy (not my forte) was needed to retain the field commander (the student pilot was from my homefield) calling the Police/ Autoroties but it worked out.

It was however there and then I felt that "small" airplanes should stay away from major/busy airports: the professionnals have the pressure of time and money while we -amateurs- do not always have the required skill level or intimate knowledge of the field. At Charleroi this was proven a few months later: a Ryan Air called a near-miss on a Cessna C172 turning base while being 5 miles out, the Cessna pilot got heavily fined and licence suspended.

On the other hand : most ATC will recognise an novice/ overwhelmed pilot by the sound of his voice and way of communicating and solve any problem professionnaly and adequatly. Most of the time but not all of the time.

The Watsonville-accident leaves another tickle: mid-airs happen most in VFR-conditions with excellent visibility while victims are novices and experienced pilots alike. That hits as a collision at sea/in the air can definitely ruin your day.
 
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Tom DM

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Something I don't understand - the 152 pilot said he sees the 340 "behind" him.

How is that possible...?

Could it be that what he was looking at was the latest position of the 340 as shown on a device displaying ADSB info...?

- Pat
I might be that the C152 on base was indeed looking out for the 340 and saw him as a far-enough-away dot when turning final. He did not know the speed the 340 was carrying.

When in final with a wheel barrow one gets uneasy when a formula one comes racing to you from the (known) 6 o'clock position. From his final radio call I conclude that the C152-pilot saw indeed the 340 (through his rear window) hurtling down on him but by then the outcome was fixed.

What bugs me is why the 340 was flying at those speeds while he clearly indicated "full stop landing".
Maybe that the 340 was flying the pilot instead of vise-versa?
 

TFF

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Both pilots made the same two mistakes. The assumed they were clear for too long and the assumed they understood the performance of the other plane. Assigning blame is both because if one did something different, we would not be discussing it. Why was the 340 fast? It should not have mattered; two airplanes should not have met if going twice the speed. Both pilots were flying on assumptions. Most of the time you get lucky.
 

Vigilant1

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We should strive to minimize the number of required assumptions, but we can't operate without any at all. When on final, I must assume the guy now holding short will continue to do that, etc.

The 152 pilot likely assumed that the C340 would be closing on him at about 35-40 knots when they were both on final. That's about right, would have worked out okay, and would have been correct the week before when that same C340 pilot flew an approx 100kt approach to the same runway. But instead ofthe normal 35 knots of closure, on the day of the accident there was about 120 knots of closure as the C340 was doing 180+kts. So, the C-340 closed the gap in about 1/3 the normal time and then didn't see the C152. Things didn't work out. At all.
But, I agree it is best to fly so that we minimize assumptions. And the assumptions we make should be biased to the conservative side.
 
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Pops

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Something I don't understand - the 152 pilot said he sees the 340 "behind" him.

How is that possible...?

Could it be that what he was looking at was the latest position of the 340 as shown on a device displaying ADSB info...?

- Pat
Large rear window. My 1966 C-150 even had a rear view mirror.
 

Riggerrob

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Physically looking directly behind is difficult for most seated humans, especially when strapped into their seats. Certainly not conducive to long, searching looks. My guess is that the 152 pilot spotted the 340 as he turned onto final.

Ron Wanttaja
Yes. And if the twin pilot was flying at normal approach speeds, that would have provided sufficient horizontal separation. Unfortunately, the twin pilot was flying faster than normal pattern speed.
I see this every day on the roads when most people are driving close to the speed limit, but one @#$%^@! decides to speed and this throws off everyone elses' guesses at where he will be 10 second sin the future.
I drive a city bus and have to make those guesses 20 times per hour. Those guesses are good when everyone follows the rules, but dangerous when one person drives considerably faster than the rest of us.
 

challenger_II

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Ok, I will play Devil's Advocate, and take the heat that I know will descend upon me...

The 152 driver broke Newton's Fifth Law of Physics: "Never pull out in front of something bigger than you are, moving faster than you can."

I am a light aircraft operator. I also drive an automobile. Right-of-Way is a nice Legal Concept, but it doesn't fix the dents, nor console the next-of-kin.
 

zolotiyeruki

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Ok, I will play Devil's Advocate, and take the heat that I know will descend upon me...

The 152 driver broke Newton's Fifth Law of Physics: "Never pull out in front of something bigger than you are, moving faster than you can."

I am a light aircraft operator. I also drive an automobile. Right-of-Way is a nice Legal Concept, but it doesn't fix the dents, nor console the next-of-kin.
I've got teenagers learning to drive. One of the things I tell them is this: "The laws of physics trump the laws of man every time!"
 

jedi

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Paraglider pilot fatality at Tiger Mt. Seattle area.

“ISSAQUAH, Wash. — A paraglider died on Sunday in Issaquah after crews found the person unconscious and unresponsive.”
 
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