Crashes in the News - Thread

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4redwings

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This is a tough one. Aircraft on final has right-of-way. Lower aircraft on final has right-of-way. Initially the 340 has right-of-way because he is on final while the 152 is on base. The 152 correctly, I think, called "on the go" BUT he apparently stayed on the glide path so he's not really getting out of anyone's way and knows he's being overtaken. He dutifully stays in the pattern. He is also the only one with good situational awareness because he sees the 340. Until he turns final! What would you do as the 340 pilot? What would you do as the 152 pilot?

The 340 pilot hears the 152 pilot say "base 20, on the go." If the 340 pilot goes around also, his mental picture correctly paints a conflict. Continue and keep looking? We know in hindsight how that worked. The safest (but completely non-standard) action is probably to pour the coals to it and start an aggressive climbing right turn. But, you are going to attract a lot of unwanted attention for that one. Probably have some 'splainin' to do since there was no crash to justify your wild behavior.

The 152 pilot knows he's in a jam. I think he's got two choices. On base: full power climb straight ahead to keep sight. Maybe even turn into the target to maintain the visual and assure clearance while making directive radio calls. Sure you wildly overshoot final but you're alive (same idea as a final turn stall: push, roll, power, recover. Heading is not in the equation). Second option: You've turned final (bad idea), you know you are being overtaken and it's not looking good. Call "twin on short final go around, climb immediately" and get below glide path while offsetting to one side of the runway or another. Definitely going to raise some eyebrows and attract a lot of attention for that one too.

The real point to this exercise is that doing the "normal" thing got everybody killed. Something drastic needed to happen when the 340 made his 3-mile call. At that point a crash was in the making. That's when the 152 knew it. When the 152 called "base on the go" the 340 knew it. But everyone followed the rules and did what they were taught right up to impact.

Would you do something out of the ordinary? Because if you do you may have to defend yourself to the feds and the multitude of Monday morning quarterbacks questioning your "crazy" improper procedures.

If you haven't prepared yourself mentally for the repercussions of taking some dramatic save-yourself action, I guarantee you will not take it when the moment comes. You've got 5 seconds, what are you going to do.
 

bmcj

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This is a tough one. Aircraft on final has right-of-way. Lower aircraft on final has right-of-way. Initially the 340 has right-of-way because he is on final while the 152 is on base. The 152 correctly, I think, called "on the go" BUT he apparently stayed on the glide path so he's not really getting out of anyone's way and knows he's being overtaken. He dutifully stays in the pattern. He is also the only one with good situational awareness because he sees the 340. Until he turns final! What would you do as the 340 pilot? What would you do as the 152 pilot?

The 340 pilot hears the 152 pilot say "base 20, on the go." If the 340 pilot goes around also, his mental picture correctly paints a conflict. Continue and keep looking? We know in hindsight how that worked. The safest (but completely non-standard) action is probably to pour the coals to it and start an aggressive climbing right turn. But, you are going to attract a lot of unwanted attention for that one. Probably have some 'splainin' to do since there was no crash to justify your wild behavior.

The 152 pilot knows he's in a jam. I think he's got two choices. On base: full power climb straight ahead to keep sight. Maybe even turn into the target to maintain the visual and assure clearance while making directive radio calls. Sure you wildly overshoot final but you're alive (same idea as a final turn stall: push, roll, power, recover. Heading is not in the equation). Second option: You've turned final (bad idea), you know you are being overtaken and it's not looking good. Call "twin on short final go around, climb immediately" and get below glide path while offsetting to one side of the runway or another. Definitely going to raise some eyebrows and attract a lot of attention for that one too.

The real point to this exercise is that doing the "normal" thing got everybody killed. Something drastic needed to happen when the 340 made his 3-mile call. At that point a crash was in the making. That's when the 152 knew it. When the 152 called "base on the go" the 340 knew it. But everyone followed the rules and did what they were taught right up to impact.

Would you do something out of the ordinary? Because if you do you may have to defend yourself to the feds and the multitude of Monday morning quarterbacks questioning your "crazy" improper procedures.

If you haven't prepared yourself mentally for the repercussions of taking some dramatic save-yourself action, I guarantee you will not take it when the moment comes. You've got 5 seconds, what are you going to do.
I’ve been in a similar situation once and, knowing that the other plane would slide to the right if he went around, I opted to go around and slide to the left side of the runway, and I announced it as well. Sliding left put me clear of either of his options (continue to land or go around with a right offset).

Incidentally, when we had an ultralight business, our airport had a lot of GA aircraft and some warbirds. We were NORDO and taught and practiced a lower, inset pattern and only slid right to line up with the runway last minute after establishing that there were no aircraft on final. We worked with the local pilots and told them that this was our procedure and that we would give right of way to any aircraft. It worked very well and no one had any complaints.
 

Vigilant1

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I don't think the C-152 could tell when he turned onto final, or had any reason to believe, that the closure speed was anything like the approx 80+kts that actually existed.

But, there's plenty to chew on here.
 
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radfordc

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I don't think the C-152 could tell when he turned onto final, or had any reason to believe, that the closure speed was anything like the approx 80+kts that actually existed.

But, there's plenty to chew on here.
The 152 pilot announced that he saw the 340 overtaking fast. The 340 pilot announced that he didn't see the traffic on base leg.
Once the 152 turned so that he couldn't see the 340 he had no chance to avoid the collision.
 

jedi

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Initially the 340 has right-of-way because he is on final while the 152 is on base.
Not according to my local DPE who is very much in the know. The 340 should have given way to the Cessna on base and closer in. He should have slowed and or gone around. Even more so if he did not have the traffic in sight. Traffic in the pattern has the right of way over a straight in at an uncontrolled (no tower Class E or G) airport. This is opposite the typical practice at a Class D airport where the controller has the “big picture”.

The 150 should not turn a close in base to take advantage of, or cut ahead of, the straight in but if I remember correctly the Cessna was already on base and had reported on base when the 340 called in on the straight in.

What would I do? If I were in the 340 I would have given way to the right for overtaking and also to remain clear of the traffic pattern assuming a left hand pattern and pulled up to slow and clear the final approach path as part of the go around procedure.
If I were in the Cessna 150 and saw the 340 as a collision threat I would have turned final Short of the centerline and remained above the glide path to keep clear of the approach path as a part of the go around. It would be difficult but it would also be important to keep the 340 in site, if possible, and ask his intentions.

If the conflict were apparent while still on a wide base I would reestablish on downwind and extend. I do not think that was the case here.
 
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Pops

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One time at a larger controlled airport I was cleared for a left turn downwind ( right pattern) for 23 at mid field. ( 7K runway). Tower also cleared a C-210 for Take-off on 33 that crossed 23 at mid field and was climbing towards me at my 12 oclock. I rolled into a hard right turn and at the same time told tower I had fast traffic off 33 at 12 oclock. Tower told the C-210 to make an immediate right turn. We passed each other with both in a right turns about 200' away. After the miss, I flew a little distance and made a 180 for the downwind. Tower never said a word to either of us except to clear me to land on final.
They DO make mistakes at times. I can tell you of several more.
 

dwalker

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I don't think the C-152 could tell when he turned onto final, or had any reason to believe, that the closure speed was anything like the approx 80+kts that actually existed.

But, there's plenty to chew on here.

I was just watching the Blanco video and telling my wife how I have had, as a student pilot two near incidents in controlled airspace where the controller had to turn the planes away from me as I was on final. For whatever reason the pilots of those planes just did not properly interpret " You are getting too close to my traffic on final".

It appears like the 340 pilot was a little fast, but regardless I would think that if there is another plane on final, and you cannot see it, simple common sense and self preservation would dictate that you slow down and find that airplane before continuing. Especially at an uncontrolled field. Had the 340 simply aborted the straight in, climbed to 500 above pattern and teardropped into the downwind everything would have been avoided.
 

Pops

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One time I was on an instrument approach about 1 mile from the OM with my slow Cherokee. Falcon jet behind me got to one mile behind, I told tower that I was doing the miss approach at this point and will be coming back for another approach. He thanked me. If you don't feel comfortable , get out of Dodge to where you do.
Got sandwiched in between two heavies on an ILS into Port Columbus, OH on 10 left in a little C-172. Told to keep my speed up at the OM. Went from 90 knots to 120 knots on the glideslope then told to increase speed , heavy getting close behind. Went to WOT and broke out at 500' in rain and then told to try to make the first taxi way to the left. I just made it and just got off and a heavy went by me in the rain and mist. They shouldn't have put me there. Made it hard on them and hard on me.
 
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Vigilant1

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The 152 pilot announced that he saw the 340 overtaking fast. The 340 pilot announced that he didn't see the traffic on base leg.
Was the C152 pilot on base leg during that last communication or had he already turned onto final? He said to the C-340 pilot "You are behind me," which I suppose is a bit ambiguous ("behind" could mean "off my tail" or "sequenced after me for landing.") The C-152 got hit pretty badly and still crashed past the runway threshold.

If the 152 was already on final and the C-340 was looking for him on base, maybe that's why he didn't see him? Also, the C-152 would be much smaller visually from the tail aspect, and possibly below the nose of the C-340 (though at his speed, the nose wouldn't be very high)

Has it been determined if the ADSB velocity data is accurate? Why would the C-340 be doing 180+ kts on final for his declared "full stop landing?"" According to the ADSB data, he never even got below his 140kt max gear extension speed.
 
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Pops

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Was the C152 pilot on base leg during that last communication or had he already turned onto final? He said to the C-340 pilot "You are behind me," which I suppose is a bit ambiguous ("behind" could mean "off my tail" or "sequenced after me for landing.") The C-152 got hit pretty badly and still crashed past the runway threshold.

If the 152 was already on final and the C-340 was looking for him on base, maybe that's why he didn't see him? Also, the C-152 would be much smaller visually from the tail aspect, and possibly below the nose of the C-340 (though at his speed, the nose wouldn't be very high)

Has it been determined if the ADSB velocity data is accurate? Why would the C-340 be doing 180+ kts on final for his declared "full stop landing?"" According to the ADSB data, he never even got below his 140kt max gear extension speed.
So much is a big question. From the location of the crash site of the 152, to me it looks like he was on final when he said "you are behind me".
The mid air had to be closer to the threshold of the runway.
 

Pops

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I know this "getting run down on final" scenario hits pretty close to home for you, with all the attendant bad memories.
Thanks for the comments.
Sure does. I had a very hard time for a while. Waking up from hearing someone screaming and realizing it was me and being strapped down with leather straps when in the hospital. As bad if not worst that all the physical trauma.
Wife don't remember anything, she is the fortunate one and thankful for that.
 

rdj

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Both pilots made appropriate radio calls, but the C-340 pilot apparently didn't comprehend/appreciate what he was hearing. I.E. "There's a small plane in front of me and I don't see it."
I'm all for keeping comms brief and keeping the frequency open, but it doesn't cost a nickel to say "Watsonville, Cessna 340 on final. I don't have the 152 in sight, I am breaking off my approach, will climb to 1200 feet on runway heading." Or something similar (and briefer, better).

There are at least two grieving families wishing that these two guys had communicated better (among other things). In the final analysis, it hardly matters who was "in the right."
Won't happen. That would require acknowledging uncertainty. This is Northern California. These are doctors, tech CEOs, venture capitalists, professionals, and twin pilots, for god's sake. (I'd mention Bonanza and Cirrus pilots also, but I don't want to sound too discriminatory.) They own these planes thanks to their genius, not selection bias. They're Mavericks of the Air. They don't make mistakes, and they're certainly not going to acknowledge your presence in their pattern.

The 152 pilot was doing everything right, by the book. The 340 was doing everything wrong, by the book. If I was on the jury I'd throw the book at the 340 pilot. However, if I was in the bar talking to the 152 pilot and rowdy biker types showed up, I'd say "there are some fights you just can't win", and I'd also say that tangling with these Mavericks of the Air is one of those fights. Whenever I hear one on the air, I keep a sharp lookout and try to stay as far away as possible until they're clear the active. If I have to circle the field twice while they screech onto the runway and head to the tie-downs like it's a NASCAR race, so be it. Whether it's a GA plane, motorcycle, bicycle, or sailboat, I've always found that "stay away" works better than "right-of-way" every time.
 

dwalker

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Won't happen. That would require acknowledging uncertainty. This is Northern California. These are doctors, tech CEOs, venture capitalists, professionals, and twin pilots, for god's sake. (I'd mention Bonanza and Cirrus pilots also, but I don't want to sound too discriminatory.) They own these planes thanks to their genius, not selection bias. They're Mavericks of the Air. They don't make mistakes, and they're certainly not going to acknowledge your presence in their pattern.

The 152 pilot was doing everything right, by the book. The 340 was doing everything wrong, by the book. If I was on the jury I'd throw the book at the 340 pilot. However, if I was in the bar talking to the 152 pilot and rowdy biker types showed up, I'd say "there are some fights you just can't win", and I'd also say that tangling with these Mavericks of the Air is one of those fights. Whenever I hear one on the air, I keep a sharp lookout and try to stay as far away as possible until they're clear the active. If I have to circle the field twice while they screech onto the runway and head to the tie-downs like it's a NASCAR race, so be it. Whether it's a GA plane, motorcycle, bicycle, or sailboat, I've always found that "stay away" works better than "right-of-way" every time.
You make a fair point
 

Victor Bravo

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Last night's TV news had a quick video of a straight tail 172 landing on a city street, reportedly out of gas. It rolled to the right 20 degrees at about 20 feet altitude and wrecked the airplane but nobody got hurt. You can't tell whether he stalled one wing accidentally or was turning to not land on a car. Near Orlando somewhere.
 

Rik-

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This is a tough one. Aircraft on final has right-of-way. Lower aircraft on final has right-of-way. Initially the 340 has right-of-way because he is on final while the 152 is on base.

This is the exact thoughts and behavior that causes pattern friction. "I said it first so I've got Priority" in that just b/c you call final doesn't mean squat when your 10 miles away and everyone else is in the pattern. That's a IFR tactic and everyone was VFR so I don't buy it.

I hear it all the time at DVO, someone in a Pilatus calls 10 mile final for 31 and everyone in the pattern says, wait your turn like the rest of us. Same for 069, I hear calls "3 mile right base" which means they are not in the pattern nor even on the West side of the range to be seen or see the airport.

These are just asshole moves at best, no authority nor right away is obliged, smaller planes are just typically more considerate to say the least is the reality.
 
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