Crashes in the News - Thread

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Turd Ferguson

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northern-michigan-plane-crash-leaves-four-dead-girl-11-sole-survivor
And 4 days later, another crash inbound to Charlevoix, base for the Beaver Island airline.

This time an E90 KingAir modified with a "Kilo Alpha" package which swaps the PT6A engines for Garrett TPE 331-10's.
 

Rhino

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The passenger who started that should have to pay everyone's medical bills and to repair the plane. Lucky he didn't get anyone killed.
 

jedi

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Don't be so quick to blame the passenger. He/she likely did the job as assigned but ran into a ADM issue for which he was poorly trained. As pointed out in the video the crew needs to be informed and this is an issue in more than just this one airline.

Expect to see changes next time you fly on an airlines. Comment to the crew about if you have concerns. If you are qualified for exit duty, take command and tell the ticket agent prior to boarding that you will accept an exit row or book the exit seat when you book your ticket. You will likely get some extra legroom but be prepared to loose a recline feature if you are in the row ahead of an exit.

There are many cases where lives were needlessly lost because the evacuation was delayed or did not occur. Procedures are not uniform among carriers. On some only the captain can initiate an evacuation. On at least one highly recommended airline a flight atendent new hire on their first line trip knows full well that they have the power and authority to initiate an evacuation if they determine it is necessary.

The briefing of exit row passengers needs to be taken seriously. There are a lot of things in aviation that need to be taken seriously. And yes, the rotating beacon flash can be alarming or disconcerting to passengers. Any safety feature has both a plus and a minus effect.

The fact that the passenger initiated the evacuation is not the problem here. The problem is that the passenger initiated an evacuation into an area that he thought was a fire. The first step of the evacuation procedure is to assess the conditions. If there is fire direct the evacuation to another exit. This should have been mentioned in the video but was not. Why?
 
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Rhino

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Don't be so quick to blame the passenger. He/she likely did the job as assigned but ran into a ADM issue...
I don't think you watched the video. They weren't told to evacuate. The passenger saw the rotating red beacon, decided it was a fire, opened the door and initiated the evacuation without instructions or any crew input, all while the engines were still running. This should very much be blamed on that passenger.
 

wwalton

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As Juan says the airlines are aware of the problem I received the same kind of scenario on the last training event. To be clear “we” received it. I’m in the right seat so in this case the less hot seat.

My personal opinion is the passenger accessible doors need a “safety” installed not fulltime but maybe cockpit selectable just for rejects and crappy landings? More complexity for a safety system is not good but this happens too often.

Another scenario is the one in Chicago where there was a fire and the slides were deployed behind running engines (well one running and one burning) they were not only useless but actually dangerous. Sliding into the right engine area would have been ugly.

Just my unofficial opinion.
 

Rhino

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I don't think you watched the video. They weren't told to evacuate. The passenger saw the rotating red beacon, decided it was a fire, opened the door and initiated the evacuation without instructions or any crew input, all while the engines were still running. This should very much be blamed on that passenger.
I didn't say that well. My apologies. My point is that passengers don't initiate or direct evacuations, nor should they. That's the job of the flight crew. And a passenger can't redirect an evacuation that was never directed to begin with. The damages and injuries sustained were caused directly by the actions of a passenger who started an evacuation he was not authorized or qualified to initiate, who initiated it when it should not have occurred, while the aircraft was in a dangerous condition in which evacuations are never supposed to take place. He is responsible for what happened, and should be held liable.
 

jedi

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I don't think you watched the video. They weren't told to evacuate. The passenger saw the rotating red beacon, decided it was a fire, opened the door and initiated the evacuation without instructions or any crew input, all while the engines were still running. This should very much be blamed on that passenger.
Edit: I did watch the video but posted this before the post above was available. I think we agree that the passenger messed up but the crew is responsible for qualifying the passenger. This discussion seems to be about whether a qualified person did the wrong thing or was the person not qualified. My position is that the passenger was poorly qualified by the crew. Rhino's position appears to be that the passenger was qualified but messed up. This is a difference of opinion and neither is necessarily right or wrong.

The point I wish to make is that the passenger briefing card is there to qualify all passengers to be able to open the exit when appropriate. Opening an exit into a known or suspected fire is contrary to the printed directions. The passengers actions were clearly wrong. With hindsight, the passenger should not have been seated in the exit row but it would be difficult for the cabin crew to determine that. I suspect that (poor choice for exit row passengers) happens all to often but fortunately aborted takeoffs at night are not all the common.

Now to the previously written post.

Rhino; You do not get it.

There is no doubt the passenger actions were not appropriate in this situation The question is why were those actions taken in this situation. He clearly made a poor decision and that was likely from poor training or misunderstanding combined with a dose of fear and confusion. He clearly should not have exited into a known or suspected fire with engines running.

I can name several accidents where numerous people perished while they waited for someone to tell them what to do! The point of the post is that crew members need to have the training and authority to do what is necessary and appropriate. The passengers in the exit row are accepting the responsibility of an additional crew member or if you like a crew member assistant. They do not need to wait for the flight attendant to come tap them on the shoulder and say "You may open the exit now" although it would be nice if there is a surviving crew member to make that call.

Read the emergency survival card next time you board an airliner and tell me where is says. "Do not use the emergency exit (or seat cushion or under seat flotation) unless commanded to do so by the captain or other crew member."

Please if you disagree do not say yes when the flight attendant asks if you will accept that responsibility. If you do accept, and it is not clear, ask specifically about under what conditions you should open the exit. The typical answer will be in the "event of an evacuation" with little or no explanation of what starts the evacuation. Typically that would be an announcement from the captain or cabin attendants. The passenger is not expected to start the evacuation in controlled "normal" situations but need not wait for directions when there are gaping holes in the fuselage with water or worse coming in IMHO.

Typically the modern airliner has a button at each cabin crew position to alert the cockpit that an evacuation is taking place. The first action for an evacuation is to push the evacuation button. That should put all crew members on the same page.

In an abnormal situation on the ground the first action of the cockpit crew, if appropriate, should be to make a PA announcement "Remain Seated" before the aircraft comes to a complete stop. You will frequently hear that as the aircraft approaches the gate but needs to stop short of the gate hold line.
 
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TFF

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If this was one of the major US carriers, then oh the horror. Foreign carriers, you are lucky they didn’t open the door in flight. Benny Hill on most of these foreign flights. A friend was on a Dc8 with chickens and goats once. No seatbelts. This one sounds like one of the better ones overall, but still not same as US or majors from Europe.
 

wwalton

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In an abnormal situation on the ground the first action of the cockpit crew, if appropriate, should be to make a PA announcement "Remain Seated" before the aircraft comes to a complete stop.
It’s very tough to make that call before you even get stopped, in fact it’s not much easier when you get the brake set. The information you are presented with at that moment is limited and you don’t want to interrupt a evacuation that’s needed. Best answer to to be primed to make the “remain seated” PA and if you get any indication of evac then get the engines shutdown ASAP. All Monday morning QBing but I don’t think we (US carriers) are impervious to this situation. It seems like it would help if the PAX actuated doors had some sort of interface with the engines or flight deck.
 

Vigilant1

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It seems like it would help if the PAX actuated doors had some sort of interface with the engines or flight deck.
It's hard to think of a way to make it sufficiently foolproof, given the types of events/damage that can prompt the real need to evacuate.
Seems that this sort of problem is fairly rare, at least as far as injury-causing accidents. Thank goodness cabin pressure prevents opening in cruise...

On a positive note, I've often been surprised at how quickly and efficiently passengers generally evacuate in a real emergency. When I see what people bring on the plane and the way they behave, I worry. But in cases where it counts, they generally respond quickly and like civilized beings.
 

Pilot-34

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I don't think you watched the video. They weren't told to evacuate. The passenger saw the rotating red beacon, decided it was a fire, opened the door and initiated the evacuation without instructions or any crew input, all while the engines were still running. This should very much be blamed on that passenger.
There doesn’t seem to be any evidence of this at all.
And all my years of sitting an exit row always thought it was up to me to decide if the aircraft need to be evacuated
 

Rhino

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There doesn’t seem to be any evidence of this at all.
And all my years of sitting an exit row always thought it was up to me to decide if the aircraft need to be evacuated
I was never once asked to do that as a passenger, and I regularly chose to sit in those seats. I was always asked if, the event of an emergency evacuation, was I comfortable with opening the door. No one ever even remotely suggested I should ever make the determination if the aircraft needed to be evacuated, only if I was comfortable opening the door after a qualified person had made the decision to evacuate. If I ever heard a flight attendant tell a passenger they could make that decision, I would immediately get off the plane. No flight attendant can 'qualify' a passenger to make that decision because passengers aren't allowed to make such decisions, and for very good reasons. No short briefing from a flight attendent could ever even come close to covering what would need to be covered. Add to that the fact that the flight attendants themselves aren't even authorized to initiate an evacuation except under extreme, very narrow circumstances, and this wasn't even close to one of those. This video highlights one of many reasons why that's true, because flight attendants can't shut down the engines to allow an evacuation to take place. There are many other such reasons why those decisions are limited to the cockpit. And I'd be very surprised to learn that isn't codified in the regulations somewhere. This does bring up a good question though. Where the heck were the flight attendants while all this was going on? I'm guessing they didn't know it was happening either, at least at first.
 

Vigilant1

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Obviously, lots of situational variables.

I'm hoping most folks would be very reluctant to open the door without a command.

I'm hoping most folks would not hesitate to open the door, command or no, if the situation outside was safe and there were flames in the cabin and panic.

Anybody remember reading about this Saudi airliner in 1980 where every person aboard died due to a delayed evacuation? Thick smoke in the cabin, passengers panicking, the plane continued to taxi for two minutes forty seconds after landing and the engines weren't shut down for three more minutes after it stopped. Nope, if I were alive I hope I, or anybody, would have opened a door if in a position to do so. Regardless of what the FA said or didn't say. IIRC, there was some suspicion that the cabin remained pressurized, preventing anyone from getting out. L101, vicinity Riyadh Saudi Arabia, 1980
 
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BJC

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I always try to get the emergency exit seat, and have been asked many times if I were willing to ...

Once, the flight attendant asked if I felt qualified, and I answered, “Yes.” She asked, “Why?” I replied that it was probable that I was the only one on board who had actually been in an airplane crash, and that I would take care of the emergency exit. Got a really funny look for that.


BJC
 

Rhino

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...I'm hoping most folks would not hesitate to open the door, command or no, if the situation outside was safe and there were flames in the cabin and panic...
I wouldn't but those are entirely different circumstances, just as the Saudi incident was. No smoke or flames in the cabin in this incident, and no other evident immediate danger to the passengers. Had this incident really been an actual fire, what the passenger did would most likely have made the situation more dangerous.

Once, the flight attendant asked if I felt qualified, and I answered, “Yes.” She asked, “Why?” I replied that it was probable that I was the only one on board who had actually been in an airplane crash, and that I would take care of the emergency exit. Got a really funny look for that.
Only got asked something like that once. Got a big smile when I related my Air Force flight crew experience. We also were supposed to make sure passengers were able and willing to open the door (actually had to train them how). I only had to personally do that once though. The nature of what we did on our planes (SIGINT) meant we very rarely had passengers.
 
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