Crashes in the News - Thread

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mcrae0104

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But just like an a and P inspects a airplane to see what’s wrong I am essentially expected to do that every time I take a flight.
Wait, who is expecting a pilot to inspect an airplane like an A&P would before every flight?

Reviewing 91.403(A) and 91.7(A) should clear this up.
 

12notes

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Well I guess I could ask you if you’re being deliberately obtuse? If you’ve identified there is a problem you have diagnosed it correct?

It’s not unusual for mechanics of any particular type of machinery to diagnose them as not working in adequate etc. but not diagnosed the exact problem.
Is it wiring problem or a tiny crack perhaps there’s a vapor lock etc. etc. etc.


Mechanics is seldom an exact silence.

Remember we can diagnose problems as inoperative needing repair or not in operative but needing repair or inoperative not needing repair.
I'm done feeding the troll. Good luck in life, you'll need it.
 

TFF

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If you you what is wrong and know how to do it right, shut up and fix it. Happens all the time. You don’t have to shout it to the world. If you jump up and down that it’s broken and you don’t want to fix it, you are not changing 2+2; you are just lying to yourself it’s not 3. Some problems are brilliantly simple and some take nuance.
I just did some stuff on a fuel servo and a mag. Some in person some over the phone. It’s a 6 hour drive for me to fix it. The A&P next door to him did not quite believe what I was asking for him to do over the phone and unluckily I was still a little off by the time I left. I supported the owner over the phone to get the last little bit. I felt bad I did not get it quite 100%, but I trusted him and we were after the same goal. Brand specific even though the parts are parts bin. Just sometimes you do know something that is not generic. It did not help it was 100F.
 

PMD

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Wait, who is expecting a pilot to inspect an airplane like an A&P would before every flight?

Reviewing 91.403(A) and 91.7(A) should clear this up.
In the case of the pilot and plane the is the source of this discussion, YES!!!! The guy bought an unknown airplane with KNOWN and admitted problems. Flew until crashed and damned well SHOULD have done a complete CCI/IRAN before flying it the next, and the next, etc.
 

Pilot-34

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No. Identifying that there's a problem isn't a diagnosis. If you tell your doctor your stomach hurts, that's identifying a problem. Him telling you it's stomach cancer is a diagnosis. Obviously airplanes aren't medicine, but the same principle applies. Just being able to identify a problem isn't necessarily a diagnosis. Granted there are times that it's obvious, but in many cases it isn't. That's where a professional steps in and performs the diagnosis. As I said before, there are things we could do ourselves, even maybe as good as an A&P sometimes. But the nearly endless myriad of nuances and varying circumstances would be impossible to track and regulate, so they make it simple by placing blanket restrictions. Not always convenient to be sure, but it's a workable system until they come up with something else.
I agree with you.
Let’s go back to that big puddle of oil under the airplane, what do you do?
Do you look at it say oh my the valve is open diagnose it as an open valve ,close the valve refill it and go on about your business?
I’m pretty sure that will be OK I think it fulfills all the requirements for the regulations.
But some of us will say that’s odd. I didn’t leave that valve open perhaps someone opened it or it jiggled open. In either case perhaps I should put some safety wire on it and secure it close.
Regulations are probably OK with that.
Others will notice that the valve is now a little loose and say to themselves it wasn’t loose yesterday but it is today the valve body must be broken and will replace the entire valve.
Are the regulations OK with that?
Now there are those of us that will take that valve off, they will disassemble it ,they will replace the part they think must be cracked. They will replace the valve. They will run the engine in different styles and ways, they will take it for a few flights. And it will operate correctly.
At this point they will think yes I have diagnosed the problem.
Was anyone wrong?
I guess in the end some of us just dig deeper than others and some of us don’t dig at all we just call the mechanic. But remember the mechanic too would’ve gone through all the steps on the way to his diagnosis .

So I guess you guys are right identifying the problem is not a diagnosis.But without a diagnosis how do you decide whether to the ground the plane or not ?
 

Daleandee

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Wait, who is expecting a pilot to inspect an airplane like an A&P would before every flight?

Reviewing 91.403(A) and 91.7(A) should clear this up.
I certainly hope not! I've been doing my conditional over the last few days (needed to order some parts) and I have at least another day or two before it's finished. If I had to take the aircraft apart this much before every flight I'd probably take up golf ... :rolleyes:
 

wktaylor

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DAMM.

Looks like the Russians had a very bad day with an Ilyushin prototype light transport...
Prototype Il-112V crashes after apparent in-flight engine fire
https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Prototype+Il-11...

This is a 'very real life-and-death' business we are part of... as is often overlooked in the 'play world' of simulation and games and UAVs.

The sudden roll-over and dive into the ground during a routine approach to a airport... when 'suddenly' the right engine begins to trail fire... suggests to me flaps may have been set... then the right flap-failed and asymmetric lift at low speeds rolled-it-over.
 
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TFF

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As a pilot, you ID the problem and your job is done. Separation of powers dictated by the FARs.

Now we are grownups and can do some basic analysis but we will go full bore just like an airline has to, which is letter of the law. Pilot at an airline does a walk around. Finds one tire worn, a bird splat, a scratch, and throw up on a seat. He goes to the cockpit and either on paper log or digitally writes these in and calls the mechanic. He is done at this point. The mechanic would come out and by the manual and company procedure make the call on each one. Put his name on each one. The plane can’t fly until that happens. Normally a tire may be changed but might be sent down to the next stop with better tools unless it’s going to blow. Bird causes an inspection. Scratch may have already been logged ok. Throw up may be changing seat covers or making the seat not useable until it can be. Pilots only choice is ok’ing that the work was done per company policy to go fly. Pilot does his job. Mechanic does his job.

At an airline a pilot will have a whole fleet he will have to fly. He can’t remember each airplane, especially if the company has
200 planes. He will remember a few. Favorites or hates. You with one plane can remember the details. You might pick to fly with a scratch on the skin and keep flying just to get a big surprise at annual that the panel has to be patched or replaced. The problem that GA owners have is not figuring out what is wrong. They generally know. They also see they need to spend money.

With a homebuilt you built, you are the mechanic and manufacturer, but will you be ethical to yourself to fix the stuff you should or you just motor on? How soft of compression do you put up with? Do you keep flying at zero or have a more normal standard. You are the mechanic. Then you are the owner.
 

akwrencher

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I think some are missing the point. If I buy an airplane, and attempt to fly across the country, without a pre buy inspection and a thorough look through of my own, Plus at least an hour local and a few landings, how on earth is that ok as far as good judgment goes? I mean, really? 23 years ago, I helped disassemble an Apache up around Lynden. lost an engine, crashed in a field. Totaled. Was bought in Canada, been sitting a while on the ramp. Still had 80/87 in one wing, 100LL in the other, engine died because the gascolator was plugged. And I mean plugged, as in it looked like you poured sand in it to the top. So, sellers fault, or the pilot, who was going to use it to instruct, trying to beat weather, and didn't even do the most basic of checks. Just my 2c. FWIW, I would have spent more effort checking out a used car before driving across country, but thats just me......
 

Vigilant1

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There is no rule requiring a pre buy inspection, in fact the FAA doesn't even recognize such a thing.
Sure. It's just dumb to not get a thorough pre-buy inspection, especially if you'll be immediately flying the plane. But it's not a requirement.
I wonder if the plane was within the annual inspection reqt, and if it was performed by the owner/builder or someone else.
 

Rhino

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...So I guess you guys are right identifying the problem is not a diagnosis.But without a diagnosis how do you decide whether to the ground the plane or not ?
I may not be the best person to answer that since my plane will be E-AB and I'm allowed to do things other non-builders can't. You don't need a diagnosis to determine airworthiness. All your oil on the ground is an obvious grounding, even without a diagnosis. Other grounding conditions should similarly affect the airworthiness decision accordingly. The purpose of your preflight is to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft prior to flight. It's designed and intended to identify problems in that regard, not to diagnose or repair them, though certainly it should lead to those things when necessary. So the question isn't about the inspection. It's about who is qualified to fix any problems revealed by that inspection. You make good points about some pilots having the knowledge and ability to dig deeper and fix more than other pilots. But there's no way for the FAA to know, track and regulate those things so they have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere in order to effectively regulate. Unfortunately any arbitrary line will inevitably trap some on the wrong side of that line. But that's the nature of the beast and is unavoidable. The door also swings both ways. As BJC pointed out, some A&Ps aren't all that qualified in some respects or on some aircraft. But with A&Ps the FAA has a known program with known metrics that they can effectively regulate. It's an imperfect system, but it's what they, and we, are stuck with until something better comes along.

I'm not going to claim omnipotent knowledge of A&Ps and the relevant regulations, but it's my understanding that many items can be accomplished by the aircraft owner and then signed off by an A&P. In a perfect world, the A&P should be allowed at least some leeway in the scope he is allowed to accomplish in that regard if he/she is both familiar with you and your maintenance practices, and is also able to verify the quality of the work performed after the fact, to the extent that he/she is confident of the resultant airworthiness. To what extent that is true I can't claim great knowledge, so I won't try. Common sense might seem to suggest an A&P would be in the best position to judge how far such a concept could be taken. However, remember that A&P qualifications and experience are not universal, they aren't the same quality for all aircraft or aircraft systems, and there's simply no way to know the real ability of any specific A&P to evaluate the skills of an aircraft owner who asks them to perform this function. They're trained to do the work, not really to train or evaluate the work of others. In that regard, the FAA faces another grey area that would be difficult to track and regulate, so you can see where they might be reluctant to freely allow such practices. There's also a not insignificant liability issue. It's that imperfect system again. Basically we're just stuck with what we have until something better comes along. I would at least investigate the possibilities along these lines with a local A&P though. It won't solve the problem, but it might help ease it a bit,
 

TFF

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I have to accuse my self of this, but show a pilot an airplane and say go fly, they automatically get stupid and say OK. Get a ratty airplane taxi up to a friend and say get in. They will get into a plane they have no history in a second. It flew in, it will fly out.

Mechanic is different. They tend to snoop like a blood hound not trusting anything. Here is a dilemma, if you are piloting, don’t mechanic and vice versa. I had flown down with my old boss to pickup another helicopter. I was to fly one back, he was to fly the other. We get to the fuel stop and are going to hot fuel and go. He walks up to me and said he lost the electrical system. It was getting dark so we stayed the night. But because he told me this while fueling my mind went into mechanic mode, so when I took off from the pumps, I was not in pilot mode. I readlined the TIT for a second. Normally I wouldn’t have been close. If you do mechanic your own stuff, you literally have to have two mindsets. You will hurt yourself if you don’t.
 

BBerson

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A certified aircraft owner can perform any sort of inspection desired (that doesn't involve removing the prop, etc) Call it a preflight inspection. Or a 4 week inspection or whatever.
Just can't sign off applicable required inspections (without a mechanic certificate).
An aircraft owner can also do quite a bit of complex preventive maintenance and sign off that work (required to sign the record) as shown in part 43 Appendix A (c).The certified aircraft owner doing preventive maintenance must also be a private pilot and sign his P.P. Certificate number. The private pilot written includes some aircraft and engine knowledge questions to allow this maintenance (preventive maintenance) detailed in 43 Appendix A (c).
Also, Scope and Detail items of inspections is in Appendix D for owners and additional items for mechanics performing annual or 100 hr inspections.
 
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