Crashes in the News - Thread

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

Hephaestus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
2,187
Location
YMM

bmcj

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
13,727
Location
Fresno, California
Surprised this one isn't up... Pilot copilot and child in vehicle dead. Impossible turn.
I saw nothing in the article that mentioned anything that might suggest an impossible turn. The only definitive fact mentioned was that it clipped a power line.
 

wktaylor

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
292
Location
Midwest USA
RE Denver 777 with catastrophic engine failure.

I suspect that there were broader reasons to dump fuel than JUST weight reduction for landing.

A catastrophic engine failure like this... where the inlet, nacelle and cowling were blown-off... adds a lot of wild-card asymmetrical drag which is never flight-tested for... only flown in simulations... unless of course it actually happens during a flight test.

Asymmetrical drag [like this] is both a controllability and POWER problem... which demands more from the flight controls and max's-out the 'good engine thrust'. The heavier the jet... the more the demand. OH-YEAH... Denver IS a fairly high altitude airport surrounded by mountains.

Can't do anything about dumping CREW/PAX [souls] and cargo... so I'm sure the crew elected to dump fuel for all the obvious benefits noted.

OH YEAH there is also a rule of thumb about fuel and fire [evident in PAX videos]: The only time You have too much fuel is when you are on fire.
 

Hephaestus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
2,187
Location
YMM
I saw nothing in the article that mentioned anything that might suggest an impossible turn. The only definitive fact mentioned was that it clipped a power line.
No, not in the article, had just departed, 90 seconds later and nearly 180deg turn later impacted roadway at the edge of the field. flightaware track is in the aviation-safety link.


 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
12,863
Location
97FL, Florida, USA

Surprised this one isn't up... Pilot copilot and child in vehicle dead. Impossible turn.
Is the the crash under discussion?
N236BC Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

20 minute 43 mile flight, 180 degree turn at about 1,500 feet altitude, flew another 20 miles before crash.


BJC
 

Hephaestus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
2,187
Location
YMM
Is the the crash under discussion?
N236BC Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

20 minute 43 mile flight, 180 degree turn at about 1,500 feet altitude, flew another 20 miles before crash.


BJC
No that was a week ago. Thought I saw a track yesterday in one of the threads...

Maybe I'm going senile.

From takeoff clearance to tower closing the field was 90 seconds. Depart 10L, impact on the approach to 28L.
 

Hephaestus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
2,187
Location
YMM
Being in an AQP for 10+ yrs now, all I can say is good luck with that
That I cannot argue with. Look at the flying illegally thread alone... Just makes me want to reach through the monitor and...

But I really can't argue Dan's points on the topic. The likelyhood of GA pilots accepting a bit more training however...
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,442
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
RE Denver 777 with catastrophic engine failure.

I suspect that there were broader reasons to dump fuel than JUST weight reduction for landing.

A catastrophic engine failure like this... where the inlet, nacelle and cowling were blown-off... adds a lot of wild-card asymmetrical drag which is never flight-tested for... only flown in simulations... unless of course it actually happens during a flight test.

Asymmetrical drag [like this] is both a controllability and POWER problem... which demands more from the flight controls and max's-out the 'good engine thrust'. The heavier the jet... the more the demand. OH-YEAH... Denver IS a fairly high altitude airport surrounded by mountains.

Can't do anything about dumping CREW/PAX [souls] and cargo... so I'm sure the crew elected to dump fuel for all the obvious benefits noted.

OH YEAH there is also a rule of thumb about fuel and fire [evident in PAX videos]: The only time You have too much fuel is when you are on fire.
Except my understanding is that they did not dump fuel. Did I miss something?
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,442
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
And it
Is the the crash under discussion?
N236BC Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

20 minute 43 mile flight, 180 degree turn at about 1,500 feet altitude, flew another 20 miles before crash.


BJC
And it says the plane was a turboprop. Clearly that is a 6 cylinder piston engine at the crash site.

As far as the impossible turn of Dan Gryder's video
The pilots job is to know the difference between the impossible turn and the possible turn as well as stall/spin advoidance and spin recovery.

The AOPA reference Dan refers to with a negative attitude was AOPAs attempt to get pilots to know the difference between the so called possible and impossible turn. IMHO there is no single line between the possible and impossible turn. There is an answer, or opinion, as to how much of a turn is possible from my current altitude and speed and any other relative flight conditions.

The problem is not the "impossible turn". That is just a handy description for a pilot that can not control the aircraft. The stall and resulting spin is a loss of control (sorry BJC, I know you think you are in control when you snap roll) that causes the accident. A pilot that is in control can turn all the way to the scene of the crash if that is the safest course of action.

From a brief review of the Flight Aware accident trace it looks as though with hindsight the pilot could have turned 90 degrees to the right and crashed on the airport.

Better yet a prompt 180 to the right assuming that the drift to the right was a part of the intended maneuver (which is pure speculation and may well have been unintentional while dealing with a developing problem) would have easily allowed a landing on 28L.

Comments and flames welcome!
 
Last edited:

Bill-Higdon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
1,162
Location
Salem, Oregon, USA
Last edited:
Top