Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. Jun 9, 2016 #21

    Lucrum

    Lucrum

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    Admittedly I don't read NTSB reports everyday. But I wasn't aware they left out such details for GA aircraft. They certainly investigate them for airlines etc.
     
  2. Jun 9, 2016 #22

    narfi

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    I agree...
    Sometimes (often?) I get carried away because arguing on the internet is 'fun'. (I can pick either side and run with it)

    In CGs defense, she did say it was local for her, and that is interesting to her. I didn't follow the links or read them because they hold no interest for me as someone more interested in general aviation and wanting to get into home built aviation. That doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with her interest (it is still aviation related), or that the idea of the thread is inherently wrong. It just means that it isn't interesting to me. Maybe I misunderstood the purpose, but I do not have any problem with a thread that catalogs accidents (all that interest any members here) over time. That was just the first submission since it was fresh in her mind. Over time I can see it as a long thread with potential for some interesting comments which an interested person could go back and read through creating different profiles in their own mind as they go.

    I have read many long long threads on this forum dating back years, and I can see this becoming one. (if its not derailed before it starts with discussing the merits/problems with itself)

    Perhaps we could discuss how a thread such as that should be played out, hash out some 'ground rules' for posting discussing in such a thread and she could start fresh?
     
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  3. Jun 9, 2016 #23

    Dan Thomas

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    There are many versions of the Pilot's Ten Commandments. This is my heavily edited version:

    The Pilot's Ten Commandments

    1. Ignore not thy checklist, for many are the valves, switches, levers and handles waiting to take vengeance upon thee.

    2. Trifle not with the thunderstorm, for thy wings and tailfeathers are like to be shorn from thine airplane and thy self be cast upon the earth.

    3. Thou shalt not commit overgrossing, nor shalt thy center of gravity be beyond limits, for the laws of gravity shall surely judge the ignorant and the errant.

    4. Diligently look to thy left and to thy right as thou journeyest through the skies, for behold the other aeroplane cometh quickly and thou shalt meet it in the air.

    5. Buzz not, lest thou incur the wrath of thy neighbor and bring the fury of Transport Canada upon thine head and shoulders. For lo, many are the fools who perish at low level when the airplane smiteth the birds of the air or the trees of the field or the wires of the electricity company.

    6. Thou shalt take the measure of thy fuel, for verily, a tankful of air at 10,000 feet is an embarrassment and as welcome as an armpit full of fleas. Yea, and even more so upon departure. For what profiteth it a man that he hath a full fuel truck at the airport yet loseth his life for an empty tank?

    7. Push not through the scud, lest the angels be waiting on the other side.

    8. Beware of the weather prophets, for the truth is not always in them.

    9. Beware the intersection takeoff, for runway behind thee and altitude above thee are no better than another hole in the head.

    10. Be not ignorant of the V-speeds, that thou mayest not approach high and fast, for the ditch at the end of the runway lieth in wait for whomsoever it may devour. Neither shalt thou neglect to check frequently thy airspeed on final approach, lest the earth rise up and smite thee.



    Funny, but some serious truths there.

    Transport Canada publishes a safety letter every so often, and has a summary of accidents as well as some in-depth examination of some that we can all learn from. They like to say the we should "Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself." A person who is afraid to read accident reports because it might scare him/her away from aviation maybe shouldn't be flying until they understand the major causes of accidents, at least, and understand that the vast majority of them are a result of either ignorance (lack of training or study) or arrogance (big ego). With homebuilts, the causes of accidents are many and varied, from systems failures (poor design or construction, or inferior materials) to loss of control (most homebuilts don't fly like the airplanes their owners learned to fly in and can be much less forgiving).

    There are the Five Hazardous Attitudes: Aviation Human Factors: Hazardous Attitudes

    Most of us don't like to be told we have one or more of these attitudes. I heard students dispute the results of testing, saying "I'm not like that!" Only to have the others say, "Yes you are!" We often don't recognize the factors within ourselves that can lead to trouble, and we should be willing to learn and correct before the laws of physics force it on us.


    News reports of accidents are nearly useless as far as learning goes. We might make some educated guesses as to what caused the accident, but until the report comes out we really don't know. The journalists know about as much about aviation as they do about brain surgery and will get everything wrong and misleading. For instance, they will often say that "a flight plan was not filed" as if the airplane was bound to crash without a flight plan. Or that "there was no fire" after an airplane landed on a highway due to fuel exhaustion. Duh. They believe what Hollywood feeds them: a crash automatically means a spectacular explosion. Or they misunderstand a pilot's take on it when he says that the airplane stalled and crashed; to them, that means that the engine quit, and an engine failure always means a death plunge.
     
  4. Jun 9, 2016 #24

    Turd Ferguson

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    But it is NEWS, which the title of the thread is "Crashes in the News"

    "News" is reports of unusual occurrences; things that don't happen every day. F-16 crashes don't happen every day so when it does happen, it's news. While GA plane crashes happen every day, there's not many of them so they are unusual, or news. Car crashes are as common as a rainshower in Florida. They happen every day so it is only news for the few personally connected to the event.

    As far as discussion to improve safety, I'd advise to proceed with caution. On the internet everybody is an aviation safety expert, no piloting experience required. For those that are truly interested in learning how to be safe, it can can be confusing trying to separate "pearls of wisdom" information from BS.
     
  5. Jun 9, 2016 #25

    Little Scrapper

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    I'm aware of what "news" is, thanks for reaffirming. My response was to the posts on safety. After all, in aviation if you're not trying to learn from the accidents the thread is nothing more than the National Enquirer. It's a forum so people are free to write what they want, I just find this morbid.

    And your last paragraph. 100% agree.

    Over the years I've noticed there's 2 types of pilots. Nobody in my circles talks about airplane crashes for the sake of entertainment. But hey, there's 2 types of pilots, pilot deaths are hallowed ground for me that's why I think this is weird. Not saying I'm right, we all have different beliefs I guess.
     
  6. Jun 9, 2016 #26

    Lucrum

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    Hallowed ground I can abide, Not learning from others errors I cannot
     
  7. Jun 9, 2016 #27

    Turd Ferguson

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    Worded another way, the NTSB only reports facts that are discovered during the course of an accident investigation. So when the dreaded "No flight plan was filed" is reported, that is a verifiable fact. Nevermind that it did or did not contribute to the accident, that's one of the boxes that must be checked off on the form so that's why it's there. At the end of the investigation, an investigator or team of investigators often offer a probably cause, which may or may not be factually accurate. The probable cause statement usually contains personal bias and prejudice because of the human element. We all have our preconceived ideas. In my very limited accident investigation training, in one exercise they present an accident scenario and every team is given the same facts. They then work backwards to try and find a "probably cause" yet none of the teams came up with similar probable causes because inevitably, personal bias and prejudices lead us down different paths.

    When a so called "accident investigator" reports with little factual information and lots of personal bias, a light bulb should go off in your head. At that point there's not much reporting going on, which is fine as long as it's stated as such. Often personal bias and prejudice are reported as fact because the reporter presents as some kind of all knowing expert. Remember, on the internet, anyone can be an expert.
     
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  8. Jun 9, 2016 #28

    Little Scrapper

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    I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Once you said you haven't read the NTSB reports on GA aircraft it became a challenge to have a discussion.
     
  9. Jun 9, 2016 #29

    Lucrum

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    Actually I said I don't read them daily Not that I never read one
     
  10. Jun 9, 2016 #30

    Turd Ferguson

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    Not sure how entertainment is defined but isn't rejecting all thought and/or discussion a form of denial?

    I have always been interested in trying to find out why a plane became a pile of wreckage. The more I learn, the more I realize that the pilot being a moron is rarely the true cause.
     
  11. Jun 9, 2016 #31

    Lucrum

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    I didn't realize so many GA pilots had so little faith in NTSB accident reports. I'm no expert on NTSB reports but I have studied a number of corporate and airline accident reports over the years.

    Is it the "pilot error" part you guys don't like?
     
  12. Jun 9, 2016 #32

    bmcj

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    Scrapper, I agree that we rarely learn something new in these discussions, but they do often serve to remind of things that have been moved to the back burners of our minds and they provide enough shock reaction to jumpstart our cautious half.
     
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  13. Jun 9, 2016 #33

    D Hillberg

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    after 18 years of pulling wrecks out of smoking holes (2 to 3 a month) the common cause is neglect, Something the poor bastard should of done but he 'had to get home' or go somewhere they thought was more important then waiting a few minutes or hours to let things settle, fuel, food, weather, flight path - what ever, slow down and enjoy the trip.
     
  14. Jun 9, 2016 #34

    Little Scrapper

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    I find this extremely interesting.

    Many reports indicate that a pilot log book couldn't be found. Also interesting.

    Many reports also indicate that a pilot hasn't flown in a lengthy period. This could mean multiple things, engineso that sit....not good. Pilots that don't fly often....not good.

    There's so much speculation in the NTSB reports I stand by my words that actual "learning" is very very difficult.
     
  15. Jun 9, 2016 #35

    Little Scrapper

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    I agree.
     
  16. Jun 9, 2016 #36

    Glider

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    I tend to binge read NTSB reports when I'm curious about a specific plane or other particular. Years ago I happened to be on a Russian airplane kick, and found three (?) instances where Yak-52s had crashed because a pair of pliers (?) had fallen back into the tail, and jammed the elevator control (?).

    Assuming I'm remembering things correctly, I'm sure the second and third (?) guy would have liked to have heard about the first. Maybe they did.
     
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  17. Jun 9, 2016 #37

    D Hillberg

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    NTSB are not experts the manufactures are, Had to 'teach' an NTSB buddy about helicopter dynamics, He learned a lot and I was at his side for a lot of his investigations, He retired not too long ago.
     
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  18. Jun 9, 2016 #38

    Turd Ferguson

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    If by faith you mean "complete trust or confidence" that would be accurate. I have complete faith in the facts discovered during accident investigations. However, many probable cause statements don't pass the smell test.

    The NTSB doesn't list "pilot error" as a probable cause anymore. Perhaps they have evolved as an investigative agency?

    With many years experience as an instructor and a period of service as ASAP ERC, there is no shortage of pilot errors. Not all of them result in an accident. Corollary to that, accidents are rarely the result of a single pilot error.
     
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  19. Jun 9, 2016 #39

    Turd Ferguson

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    Correct, which is why the NTSB will often invite experts to participate in investigations.
     
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  20. Jun 9, 2016 #40

    Turd Ferguson

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    I think from an educational perspective, reading the facts in an accident report are analogous to sifting through a bed of oysters. You examine them, pry some open only to discover they are oysters. If one looks long enough and hard enough, they might find a pearl. For the casual reader of accident reports, that pearl can be elusive. So again, from an educational perspective, probably not a very efficient learning method.

    On the other hand, I have always found accident reports an entertaining read. Perhaps I'm one of those psycho's.

    An alternative might be to read the analyzed version of an accident in aviation publications. They are usually structured to be "educational" and as such you would think they would point out the pearls. On the other hand, if the author introduces too much personal bias, he might obfuscate the pearls...
     

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