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Crashes in the News - Thread

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bmcj

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Well that looks like the much talked about Yamaha R-1 or Apex engine. Wonder what's up?
It may not have been engine failure. It might have been pilot error.

What troubles me is whether the wing folded due to impact or folded manually afterward. If it folded on impact, that seemed like relatively little wing damage (low impact) yet the pin or joint still failed.
 

atypicalguy

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My RC friend calls that failed roll a "jelly roll". It's much more difficult to do a proper roll in a transportation airplane than it is in an Extra 300. An Extra 300 can be flicked through a roll and completed before anything goes badly wrong.
Not so easy in a transport airplane (limited roll rate, excess dihedral, forward CG, etc)
I was thinking this was some sort of mechanical failure of the left aileron control linkage, but looking again the other aileron is clearly deflected downward, so it does appear the inversion was intentional. Impulsivity and flying just do not seem to mix very well. Those AOPA videos lay it out about how many of the GA crashes involve some sort of low altitude flight in front of onlookers known to the pilot. Kind of makes you want to get as far away from the ground as possible until it is time to land.
 
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gtae07

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ALSO, I've spouted off about a related concept previously in a different thread... what if the engine failure training lasted all the way to the ground in the sim, 20 times in all different types of terrain, and the actual dual CFI airborne engine-out training remained identical to what is being taught now? Would that not yield better and safer pilots, even though the dead stick in the sim is still not 100% realistic, G-forces, fear, etc?
Agree 100%. You learn through experience, exposure, and doing, not talking about doing. I'd love to have access to a simulator and good instruction where these kinds of things happen. Engine failures (enroute and after takeoff), deteriorating weather, wonky systems malfunctions, and so on.

Go look at airline training (or better yet, astronaut mission training). Every training session, especially for the astronauts, they get hammered with failure after failure. Granted, that's part of their job, and they're getting paid for it vs. paying out of pocket on their time off, but still, some semblance of that would be great for those of us without big-airplane time.

I started truly appreciating the value of training (and what happens when you don't get the right kind) while I was on the fire department. We were small and didn't have much access to things like burn buildings and other such realistic training aids, and we didn't get all that many fires. Our fire training was a lot of deployment and entry, and conducting searches (at night, using smoke generators), but very little live fire, no heat, no use of water on a real fire. I made entry at only one structure fire my entire four years volunteering; up to going through the door everything was just like the training, but as soon as I went through that door into the heat and smoke, it was a brand new experience. Heat, pitch-black smoke, a hint of red/orange from the fire, noise, water, etc. I just blasted water everywhere, had no idea where I was, and it took a grizzled old guy yelling in my ear to finally shut the water down. I got the fire out all right, but almost destroyed the evidence* in the process and got a lot of ribbing for it afterward. It's a good thing it wasn't a much nastier situation, like an old house about to collapse with people inside...

Anyway, my point with that little story is that I see similarities in my fire department training** and the current state of light airplane emergency training--we stress a lot of the preparation (engine failure memory items for airplanes, hose deployment and entry for firefighting) but it seems like we left off the last crucial bit, the stress and sensory overload, the parts that really bite people. We talk about flying it all the way to the ground, or about getting the nose down after a failure on takeoff, or getting to the seat of the fire and hitting it with water... but that's talking, and it does you no good to talk about what to do if you freeze up or panic when it actually happens. Of course, in an airplane you can't really ride all the way to the crash, and you can only do so much with live burn experiences due to budgets and not wanting to kill people in training; but there are ways to better simulate that and burn the initial panic/freeze reactions out.

Overall, I think that acclimation to stress and emergencies is just as much an important part of training as instilling the correct actions. Done right, a simulator could be of huge benefit here. And instructors can do other things, like pop doors open on climbout or "fail" multiple items in succession.


* it was arson in a hotel room

** others' experience may vary; many places have really good training, others can barely afford to keep their trucks running. We got lots of good training on extrication and vehicle accidents, and we ran those all the time.
 

jedi

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It may not have been engine failure. It might have been pilot error.

What troubles me is whether the wing folded due to impact or folded manually afterward. If it folded on impact, that seemed like relatively little wing damage (low impact) yet the pin or joint still failed.
Big tires, big engine, big fuel tanks. Wait for the You Tube video.

It looks like a failure on Take Off to me. I agree with left wing comments. How can you fold the wing and not pull out the the leading edge attach bolt holes? I can't expand the photo for a closer look but there does not appear to be any damage to the root of the leading edge spar. Did the wing fold back on the takeoff roll. or at lift off?

It looks as though it came down hard on the left gear.
 

gtae07

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You don’t have to push or pull to get through a basic roll. Non aerobatic pilot’s natural reaction is to pull up. It’s like a regular driver hitting the brakes in an emergency. When the plane did not stay on a rail during the roll the natural reaction was pull up and get out. Never in a spin before, pull up. Unluckily pull up exacerbated everything he was trying to get out of. Push, if you have never done negative G, it’s disorienting because you have never been pulled out of your seat. Guess what, natural reaction is pull to get it feeling right. A plane not as strong will pull the wing off. That is what happened locally when a pilot got his Commercial license. In the rented Aztec he had just finished up in said “ when I’m done I’m going to roll that sucker “. Rolled, pulled a wing off, all with his family riding.
That's unfortunately common.

I was taught aileron rolls pretty early in transition training to Dad's RV-6. I didn't find them difficult, though I had someone teaching me and I wasn't going for airshow/competition precision, just safety.

Then one day, I was taking my sister's boyfriend up, and decided to let him try one. After all, his brother did fine doing rolls, so how hard could it be? Yep, dumb idea. Anyway, he had no flight experience but had done well with simple turns etc. for a few minutes, so I said "sure, go ahead and try". As we hit about 180°, he freaked and pushed. Woah, that was unexpected! I took over and rolled us back level--then compounded my idiocy, and had him try again with the same result 🤦‍♂️. Finally the dim light came on and I said "let's not try that again".

Shortly thereafter, I read about someone ripping his wings off after attempting a roll with no instruction, and pulling like this. It was at that point I realized how stupid I'd been.
 
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Bill-Higdon

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It may not have been engine failure. It might have been pilot error.

What troubles me is whether the wing folded due to impact or folded manually afterward. If it folded on impact, that seemed like relatively little wing damage (low impact) yet the pin or joint still failed.
The news article says he drug a wingtip an guess as to which wing tip
 

radfordc

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Shortly thereafter, I read about someone ripping his wings off after attempting a roll with no instruction, and pulling like this. It was at that point I realized how stupid I'd been.
A passenger ripped the wings off a factory RV-8 during a demo ride back in 1998.
 

wwalton

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I was just pondering this accident photo again while looking at the picture of the tube spar in really good condition on the left wing. I'm betting that the left wing was already being folded to aide a recovery operation. I'm not saying anybody did anything wrong, but how else would you explain the condition? Of course we all know that we can't interfere with a possible accident investigation. But you may need a wing folded to help access the cockpit or something.
 
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