Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. Aug 4, 2019 #2501

    radfordc

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    So, we're back to on board explosives. Which is simpler/cheaper/lighter....whole airplane parachute or explosive bolts?

    The concern with an airplane flipping and killing the occupant isn't just for water landings.

    "On November 26, 2014, at 1550 central daylight time, an experimental amateur-built Huebbe Sonex HB, N244HB, nosed-over during a forced on a field during near Plainview, Illinois. The airplane experienced a total loss of engine power during cruise flight. The pilot sustained fatal injuries and a sport pilot rated passenger sustained minor injuries. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot under Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight that was not operating on a flight plan. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight that departed from Taylorville, Illinois, and was destined to St. Charles, Missouri.
    An autopsy of the pilot was conducted by the Macoupin County Coroner's Office, which reported the cause of death as "blunt force injuries to head and neck" and the manner of death as "airplane crash"."
     
  2. Aug 4, 2019 #2502

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    Should this be added to the pilot training syllabus? If not trained and practiced what is the chance of it being properly executed when needed?
     
  3. Aug 4, 2019 #2503

    Wanttaja

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    My understanding is that the discussion was about forced landings, not runway-condition events happening to intact and operational aircraft.

    The key point is, pull the chute and you and your passengers are highly likely to survive, regardless of the point you come back to Earth. It offends the purists out there, sure enough. But the mariners ~150 years ago insisted that steamship captains be required to hold Masters tickets in sail, too.....

    Ron "Down funnel, up sail" Wanttaja
     
  4. Aug 4, 2019 #2504

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    Oh, the bolts, of course. But explosive bolts on landing gear only solves one, very limited, quite rare issue (engine failure over terrain that cannot be successfully force-landed on with landing gear in place). The rocket-launched parachute on a Cirrus provides a survivable solution to almost ANY aeronautical problem. With the exception of gabby co-pilots, and pulling the handle will probably shut them up, too.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  5. Aug 4, 2019 #2505

    Deuelly

    Deuelly

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    Th Navy pilot manuals I've read usually divote a small paragraph to it at most. Sometimes a simple cartoon with captions. I feel it should be mentioned in flight training and reviews. If you fly over water routinely I'd have it in the back of my head. Maybe even watch a few videos of it so you have an idea of what's going on. Going off the odds of ending up on my back with fixed gear straight in on water, I'd be willing to give it a try. No practice needed, just play the odds.

    Brandon
     
  6. Aug 4, 2019 #2506

    Wanttaja

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    And so far, the parachute is winning, hands-down. Insurance companies LOVE the CAPS on Cirri. They can pay for ten brand-new aircraft for one it costs to litigate and pay off on a wrongful-death lawsuit for a SINGLE passenger. In some cases, the airplane is even salvageable.

    For the past twenty years, people have been saying, "The insurance companies are going to shut Cirrus down, they're going to get tired of having to pay for pilots to prematurely use the chute."

    Twenty years, folks. Hasn't happened yet.

    Sounds interesting (I'd love to see some diagrams) but I see problems trying to translate it to GA.

    First, GA aircraft aren't as solid. The technique is going to put a lot of stress on the airframe, and I suspect tearing the airplane apart will be less survivable.

    Second, GA aircraft don't secure their occupants as well. A Wildcat pilot will have a harness designed to hold him very solidly in place; a lot of GA planes don't even give the rear-seat occupants shoulder harnesses. In addition, while the pilot can just whannng side-to-side in a narrow Wildcat cockpit, a typical GA aircraft give the people inside a lot more scope to move.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  7. Aug 4, 2019 #2507

    Bill-Higdon

    Bill-Higdon

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    Ron,
    Here's another save for your statistics


    27 July 2019
     
  8. Aug 4, 2019 #2508

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    An ultralight flying low below 500 feet has limited options for a parachute deployment.
    Flying high has much more options, of course. But for low level coastal flight at say 10 feet agl (above the water) a parachute is useless. Has Icon deployed a chute yet?
     
  9. Aug 4, 2019 #2509

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    I actually think CG's concept would be doable for an ultralight-class airplane. Think of something like a Demoiselle....

    [​IMG]

    Include a set of skids near the axle point of the wheels, and it will give the plane something smooth to slide on that won't catch on most terrain.

    In other words, rather than merely ejecting some struts and wheels, provide an alternate gear that permits landings on surfaces the wheels couldn't handle. The skids don't *have* to support takeoff; they just need to spread the energy over a wider area when force-landing.

    Implementation (for an ultralight-class vehicle) should actually be fairly simple. Basically a latch or something that holds the struts in place for normal operations, and some springs inside the strut mounts that push them away if the latch is triggered.

    Two issues for ALL processes that depend on a stressed pilot performing major reconfiguration of an aircraft in an emergency: Training and Mindset.

    For example, it's one thing to sit at one's computer and say, "Hey, I'll just pull the BRS." Certainly, one can train to pull the handle. But the mindset enters into it... because in the real world, faced with the prospect of making a significant, immediate decision, many pilots will balk. The pilot has to make the deliberate decision to surrender all control of the aircraft and, later, to withstand the disapprobation of everyone who thinks he was a wuss for pulling the handle. This may make them more reluctant to take such action.

    The services went through this when ejection seats were introduced. Pilots were reluctant to use them (with good reason, ejections in those days produced some significant injuries) and were delaying their decisions too long.

    The US Navy came out with a dandy poster to encourage their pilots to punch out when they had to. I saw it once, but haven't been able to find it online. I liked it so much I recreated it, using the same basic photo as the original:
    [​IMG]

    One thing for the CG gear ejector with a set of backup skids...the drawback to using the system is merely the fact that the aircraft cannot take off. If the forced landing is caused by engine problems, the owner will probably have to disassemble and cart it away, anyway. In any case, the potential for damage is probably low, so there'll be less reluctance to use it. Not like a BRS, where the owner will have to face replacement charges.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  10. Aug 4, 2019 #2510

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    I believe the envelope for an ultralight BRS is far more generous than the Cirrus CAPS. One online sources says there have been successful deployments at 200 feet or lower.

    Hasn't had to, from the incidents I've seen.

    Almost all the emergency systems...be they parachutes, ejectable gear, droppable fuel tanks (e.g. O'Neill Magnum) require time for the pilot to assess the problem and trigger the system. Flying ten feet off the deck doesn't give enough deployment time nor decision time...that's one of the problems with unnecessary low flying. Run a fuel tank dry at 5,000 feet, and you laugh at how startling it was. Run it dry at ten feet and you probably won't have time to recover.

    The Icon accident at Lake Berryessa is a good example of this. Using the BRS might have had better results than stalling when attempting to turn around in a box canyon...except the plane was too low to start with.

    It's interesting to speculate on BRS use in the most recent Icon accident. Even though the airplane was well below the minimal altitude, the physical action of the rocket-powered chute may have slowed the airplane significantly before impact. Might been fewer injuries than from hitting the top of a tree and dropping straight down into the water.

    Pure speculation, of course. But to tie in to one of my previous posts, it would ALSO require the pilot to come to the conclusion that continued (normal) flight would result in a crash. Most pilots are reluctant to admit that, and stuff like BRSs are left until it's too late.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  11. Aug 4, 2019 #2511

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    Yeah, a forced landing flip over is the biggest concern for my airplane. I'm the highest thing sticking out of the cockpit....don't want to end up like Charlie Hillard. Eindecker 2.JPG
     
  12. Aug 4, 2019 #2512

    Hephaestus

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    I really wouldn't mind one (brs) for the Mooney. Don't love the price of the annual repack and decade rocket. But I've gotten into weather in canyons, icing and other events where - a hail Mary save my ass would be appreciated.

    But look at the kr2 above - engine out over the city. I'd have pulled the chute 100% safer than trying that landing - all it would take is some idiot making a right turn out of any of those parking lots, talking on the phone - to ruin your day... or not managing to stop for that red light and getting tboned...
     
  13. Aug 4, 2019 #2513

    jedi

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    Don't need explosive bolts or decision to eject the gear based on a presumed field roughness or water impact. Design shear pins in the gear with a skid to prevent roll over and prop damage after the gear breaks loose. The gear will hold in any normal hard landing but a five G deceleration will remove the gear. No pilot decision. The designer makes the decision for him. Perhaps 3 Gs horizontal would do it. Don't get that in any normal landing.
     
  14. Aug 4, 2019 #2514

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    I'd be a little worried about any transitional effects... what the gear leg might do, under load, as it rips away from the airplane on a hard landing. Also, you might end up with one gear breaking free but not the others.

    Also, this is something that should be tested every year. Awkward for a sheer-pin system designed to fail at a given G-level, but relatively easy for a pull-the-handle-and-the-legs-fall-off sort of thing.

    Oh, and I'd like something higher than 3Gs. This is my G-Meter after one of my landings....
    [​IMG]
    (yes, I known you said HORIZONTAL 3Gs, not vertical like my G-meter shows. Couldn't resist.)

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  15. Aug 4, 2019 #2515

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    Yes, the skids fitted for that era were for everyday use on rough fields, not just emergency landings.
    A bush pilot in Alaska was talking to me about fitting such skids on his aircraft.
     
  16. Aug 4, 2019 #2516

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    https://brsaerospace.com/questions/
    Q. What is the service life of a BRS Whole Aircraft Rescue Parachute System?

    A. The chute needs to be repacked every 10 years and the rocket replaced.
     
  17. Aug 4, 2019 #2517

    Hephaestus

    Hephaestus

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    Ah last time I looked people were talking annual repacks. Maybe different version.
     
  18. Aug 4, 2019 #2518

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but...

    (Sorry, Facebook is the only place I could find this and reference it. I hope the link works for everyone.)
     
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  19. Aug 4, 2019 #2519

    choppergirl

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    Bent Metal. hard Landing inside Confined Area in a Robinson R44 Raven 2 Helicopter

    On 6/9/2019 my family was landing at my parent's helipad. I lost tail rotor authority at roughly 20 ft. of altitude. I lowered the collective and performed roughly a 270-degree descending turn inside the confined area, landing hard, but safely.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If you luck out and can land your plane without incurring too much damage or any damage, flying it out may be the best way to go, if you fly with a cadre of friends that can fly in and bring you spare parts and tools and help work on the plane, you can be out of there with a heck of a lot less involved... this seems almost de rigeur for outback pilots.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  20. Aug 5, 2019 #2520

    choppergirl

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019

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