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Dan Thomas

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But what Turd said is true. Like don't do the risky things that that has killed a lot of people, and know what the heck you're doing before you get in the plane, and don't fly a plane that you can barely keep up with, and there is no telling how far that will keep you out of the "statistic making" category.

Look at the auto accidents. So many of them are caused by drunks, distracted drivers, excessive speed for the conditions, running stoplights/signs, tailgating, all the stupid attitude-related things that apply in so many aircraft accidents. Fooling around at low level, illegal aerobatics, VFR into IMC, get-home-itis, going flying in adverse weather conditions just because today's my day off and if I don't fly today I won't be able to fly for another week. Lots of bad choices that simply don't need to happen.
 

rbarnes

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ATC recording of the SR22 crash

and for the record I did 100% of my flight training in a Grumman tiger out of that same airport. It's not that hard to get in and out of.

Do NOT exceed 30* bank angle in the pattern

[video=youtube;xPo5yuLbvco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPo5yuLbvco[/video]
 
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radfordc

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When you hear just how confusing things were getting with ATC and the missed approaches you can understand how it would be easy to lose focus on flying the plane. She sounded like she had her head in the game right up until the airplane departed control. You can imagine that ATC's encouragement to "keep it tight" may have been a factor.
 

Low Pass

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Amazing. I believe this will, and should, be studied in ATC circles for the duration of human involvement. And I shift my assessment of blame from more on her, to much more on ATC. That was terrible. Very eye opening video/audio sequence. Thanks for sharing.
 

BBerson

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It isn't the individual controllers fault. It is the antiquated system of calling for instructions for every move.
It takes a huge chunk of brain capacity to listen and talk while flying a single pilot airplane. Not so much for pro two pilot crews that do it every day.
They banned hand held cell phone use in cars here because of distracted drivers.
 

mcrae0104

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It is the antiquated system of calling for instructions for every move.
What is your suggestion for a better, less antiquated system?

I don't think verbal communication is the root cause of this accident. Thousands of (non-commercial, single) pilots deal with ATC every day and still manage not to spin into the local Ace Hardware.
 

BBerson

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What is your suggestion for a better, less antiquated system?

I don't think verbal communication is the root cause of this accident. Thousands of (non-commercial, single) pilots deal with ATC every day and still manage not to spin into the local Ace Hardware.
Maybe not the main root cause, but a branch root.
A slightly better system is like Oshkosh Airventure week where pilots follow the leader and don't acknowledge every command.
They just listen.
Beyond that, the future nexgen would have pilots view a display that shows traffic and the pilot simply flies the route on the screen maintaining proper spacing.
Of course, I would also have separate small runways for small airplanes at busy airports like this one.
 

rbarnes

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Amazing. I believe this will, and should, be studied in ATC circles for the duration of human involvement. And I shift my assessment of blame from more on her, to much more on ATC. That was terrible. Very eye opening video/audio sequence. Thanks for sharing.
Why blame ATC ? she was pilot in command.

She made a Flying Day 1 don't do this mistake, and it killed her and her family .......... just like the exact same mistake has done to MANY others in the past.

DO NOT exceed 30* bank angle in the pattern. It can and will kill you if get it wrong.
It takes about 1/2 second to screw up and then you're dead 2-3 seconds after that. You barely have time to say - oh sh--- and you're dead.

High bank angle, low speed, nose starts drop, you instinctively pull back to get the nose up and ..... you're dead.
 

gtae07

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Maybe not the main root cause, but a branch root.
A slightly better system is like Oshkosh Airventure week where pilots follow the leader and don't acknowledge every command.
They just listen.
Beyond that, the future nexgen would have pilots view a display that shows traffic and the pilot simply flies the route on the screen maintaining proper spacing.
Of course, I would also have separate small runways for small airplanes at busy airports like this one.
In a real nextgen system, normal operations shouldn't require any verbal communication at all. Traffic would self-separate and sequencing in busy areas would be automated, with people supervising and overriding as required. Text and datalinks would replace reading out clearances, issuing heading/speed/altitude changes, crowded frequencies, and so on.

To go with it, instruments for IFR would become head-mounted displays that make shooting a Cat III approach to minimums as simple as flying circuits on a CAVU Saturday morning. You would just look out the window/canopy and see the runway and glideslope and terrain and other traffic. VFR, it would declutter or turn off entirely.
 

gtae07

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DO NOT exceed 30* bank angle in the pattern. It can and will kill you if get it wrong.
It takes about 1/2 second to screw up and then you're dead 2-3 seconds after that. You barely have time to say - oh sh--- and you're dead.

High bank angle, low speed, nose starts drop, you instinctively pull back to get the nose up and ..... you're dead.
That's a false safety. How many people died because they had it drilled into their heads not to exceed 30 degrees, and then tried to tighten a turn with the rudder?

What matters is your AOA, not your bank angle.
 

BBerson

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If the controller asks me to "tighten it up" (like he instructed her to do), I will crank it over into a coordinated 60 degree bank and drop the nose.
I guess the 30 degree bank pilots will do what? Kick in some inside rudder?
 

rbarnes

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If the controller asks me to "tighten it up" (like he instructed her to do), I will crank it over into a coordinated 60 degree bank and drop the nose.
I guess the 30 degree bank pilots will do what? Kick in some inside rudder?
It's your responsibility to maintain control. ATC can go pound sand if they tell you to do something you cant do. All you need to know is one word. "UNABLE".

This was probably one of her problems. She was in an uncoordinated turn.

Typical approach into Hobby for a small plane goes like this is:
over the top of mid-field at 1,600
then a request to make a tight downwind for whatever runway they are using
and they sneak you in between landing jets or on parallel/crossing runway

Descending out of 1,600 into pattern altitude this goes easy and is easy to control.

This pilot had already been zig zagging around
Just finished a go around - who knows what flap configuration the plane was in...... did she suck up the flaps as she started the "tight turn"

We dont know yet, but she made a basic 101 flying mistake. My instructors drilled this stuff into my head relentlessly. Pattern mistakes like this cause probably over 50% of GA crashes.
I could post a half dozen YouTube vids right now that go over accident reports describing this exact same scenario ........ several of them in SR22's now that I think of it.

Cirrus should be ***** slapped for the reckless marketing they do with these planes
 

Swampyankee

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It's easy. Go to a room full of pilots, ask for a show of hands of those who think they are above average. The majority will raise their hand. The ones that don't are the good pilots.
I try to sit down after any long drive and try to figure out what I did wrong. If I can't think of anything, I figure I wasn't paying enough attention.
 

StarJar

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The controller tells her "I'll call your right base now"
What kind of communication is that? Is it he will call it, or is calling it? Very unclear IMO. Then it looks like she turns a premature right base, which is out of phase with the other approaching aircraft.
Then later he tells her to maintain 1600', turning final, and she ends up way high.
And then on downwind he warns her of wake turbulence of a 737 that just landed. I didn't get that either.
I know right now he probably feels like a POS, but it sounded to me like he had a real (macho, condensending) attitude during most of that. Sorry. And real bad instructions and communication, but I haven't flown for several years.....
I think she ended up pretty frazzled before the spin. It seemed like she couldn't catch a break.
Edit: He's also telling her things like the jet is closing at 80 kts; a jet is flying 4 miles per minute; asks her if she "would you like to follow the 737". A lot of talk that seemed pretty inapropriate to a VFR SE pilot; I mean that's his job, why is he telling her so much useless crap?
I know, I know, it's easy to knitpick in hindsight, but I think he sorta got caught with his pants down.
Pls. No likes, just please tell me WTH is going on out there.

(I'll take bmcj's, before my ranting edit.)
 
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