Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. Jul 9, 2019 #2361

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    One thing that caught my eye when looking at the Zenith CH-750 accidents was a higher incidence of builder error issues. As I mentioned, there were only 22 total accidents in my database, which, normally, I consider too low for comparison to other designs. But in six of those accidents, builder error was a contributing factor...that's about 27%. This is high; the overall rate for homebuilts is about 6%. There are few common features in those accidents...two involve the fuel system (which is not rare, in homebuilts) and two involve separate types of propeller failure.

    It was introduced roughly the same time as the RV-10...which has roughly the same number of accidents in my database (21) and almost the same number of builder-error incidents (5). Again, two are fuel-related.

    So...we might be looking at teething problems for newer designs.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
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  2. Jul 9, 2019 #2362

    smoothwaterman

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    Bad deal all around. Two experienced, known and well liked pilots. I don't believe they were attempting to land, but rather possibly got caught in a tight canyon (similar to the icon incident). Some speculation based on the accident site that a wingtip caught and swung the aircraft into the wall. It is extremely rugged terrain out there. Sadly it can catch any of us.

    An example of some of the canyon lands -
    Canyon Photo.png
     
  3. Jul 9, 2019 #2363

    SVSUSteve

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    I don't think they are a bad aircraft all in all. There are certainly worse designs out there to be in a crash in (a lot of composite aircraft other than gliders, most wooden aircraft, etc). I had a chance to fly in one a while back and think they are wonderfully designed from a handling perspective.

    The only problem with them is that they have a tendency for the nose to fold back into the cockpit because of how little reinforcement there is behind the firewall due to the desire to maximize visibility and save on weight. It's understandable but it poses a not insubstantial risk should there be a crash.
     
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  4. Jul 9, 2019 #2364

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    About 13% of CH-701 accidents involve fatalities, vs. ~25% of all EAB accidents. However, the lower speed range of the Zenith is probably a major factor in that.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  5. Jul 9, 2019 #2365

    Vigilant1

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    Thanks for the fix. I think I was remembering your comments in this thread:
    Now, "atrocious" is strong language, but there is "atrocious" in an absolute sense and "atrocious" in a relative sense. I think it's fair to say that you are generally critical of crashworthiness of most homebuilt/certified small aircraft, so (at risk of getting your meaning wrong) a 701 could be "atrocious" in an absolute sense but maybe no worse than the average small acft in a relative sense.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  6. Jul 9, 2019 #2366

    SVSUSteve

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    Yeah...it's almost certainly the explanatory variable. It would be interesting to see what influence pitch angle, which is a rough inverse surrogate of deceleration distance (steeper angle, shorter distance and vice versa) has on the case fatality rate among the 701 crashes.

    It may reveal (and this is hypothetical guessing so don't anyone take it as a statement of fact) a peculiar situation where some of the slowest 701 crashes (full unrecovered stalls from low altitude at a speed well below the stall speed of 90+% of GA aircraft) may actually have an increased case fatality rate.*

    *- Case fatality rate: # of persons killed out of the number of occupants involved (a separate and potentially more useful statistic from the commonly cited "X% of crashes are fatal" statistic).
     
  7. Jul 9, 2019 #2367

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

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    Data that I came across after I made that statement (which I am now rather embarrassed by) later changed my mind on the seriousness of the problem. I stand here correcting my former statement. They are far from a highly crashworthy aircraft but due to their low speed and forgiving flying characteristics, it lessens the overall risk.
     
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  8. Jul 10, 2019 #2368

    smoothwaterman

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    Aircraft structure design is quite always a compromise involving perceived risk and a balance to weight and performance.
    The Kitfox in particular and some other models seem to have a tendency to hinge at the lower firewall point and fold inward onto the occupants upon a frontal collision as was brought up earlier.
    For certain design missions this would seem perfectly acceptable as the potential risk of that impact would be perceived as very low. In the “low and slow” world of off airport operations it’s probably best to have a more robust cage.
     
  9. Jul 14, 2019 at 6:01 PM #2369

    bmcj

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    This is from a couple of years ago, but I am posting it because I thought the information about the cause of death for the rear seat passenger was very informative... little things that we might change because we don’t think they’ll matter.



    0F3B43D0-A8C9-4563-9443-4A98A8D1139F.png (Click to enlarge)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019 at 6:39 PM
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  10. Jul 15, 2019 at 4:26 AM #2370

    choppergirl

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    Interesting Crash Location Story (BBC video) - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, author of The Little Prince

    I find crashes interesting, because we always feel safe and in control, and that we are going to live forever... but we literally have no idea what is going to happen next, ever. Even more so, to our stuff, after we are dead, when we no longer even have the power to move a single grain of sand, or protect the most dearest possessions to us anymore.

    I've heard and known what dead relatives want to happen after they die, they make their wishes clear, and seen what follows is anything but that.

    Or think how something so inconsequential, can suddenly become a pivot point for history, or can survive decades or centuries when everything else about a person vanishes. The bizarre chain of events, for example, of how a wood bound book from 1784 colonial america ends up in my possession.

    The bracelet above, for example, given by an editor to a French author in New York in case he became lost, so that a constible could direct him back safely... who would of known, it would be dredged up in a fishnet completely at random by someone of the same first name, from a P-38 he was flying that had been shot down by a German.

    What about a bottle of perfume taken by Ameila Ehrhart, found on an island beach. Is it hers? Lets assume it was. When she bought it, was she even thinking, it might be the last thing found of her on a sandy nowhere island in the south Pacific. Maybe it was just some flotsam and jetsam material good in her own life, like my own perfume bottles are. I couldn't tell you where my refrigerator even came from, let alone a perfume bottle. I doubt when it came into her life, the idea of flying over the Pacific wasn't even a thing to her yet.

    Things I've done in my own life that were so unbelievably, utterly harmless and inconsequential and unremarkable, with good intentions, have ended up becoming turning points that literally turned my life upside down... like... a crash. You can indeed do something nice for someone, and it destroy your life forever. Which does not compute to a normal, rational brain.

    You might think a crash is something due to carelessness, or mechanical failure, or acts of mother nature, or some human error or material structural error... such is the mind to think the universe acts entirely to a Newtonian set of laws and there must be an explanation for everything... but a crash can be something else entirely, can be completely random, and completely unrelated to being in a vehicle at the time.

    You can, in fact, unexpectedly crash an entire friendship or relationship with one sentence. You can crash an entire political career with one statement. You can inadvertently crash a teetering political balance with one shot fired at one Austrian Archduke. Hurricanes started by butterfly wings.

    Essentially, thinking about a crash, is trying to see beyond the rose colored glasses you wear every day that tell you how you think the world works, that you've built so that you can work effectively in it, a sort of suspension of disbelief, to see that it's only an be an imperfect, incomplete paradigm at any moment of how the world really is. Random **** happens.

    I look at all the wealth all my three sets of grandparents had, and I look at what I have left of them, and it is the most random, worthless stuff. A locket and a women's pocket knife given to me to put in the box car of a toy train. Some DVDs to burn out WW2 fighter videos with. Etc. When their lives crashed, surely they would of thought - wow, I should of given away more stuff while I had the chance. Because all the rest of their lives achievements evaporated.

    If your life crashed tomorrow, and you no longer had the power to even move a grain of sand, and now all your possessions were up for grabs by anyone... what would you have made sure what went to who? For those that believe in an afterlife (not me)... What would you miss most now that you were dead... things that you took for granted as completely ordinary.. would you miss colors... being able to taste stuff... the simple act of eating... and walking.. would you take and endure all the bad stuff back, just to have the good?

    One thing I can say, is if you think it's morbid to talk about death and this topic should not exist, you probably should not be flying. Flying is dangerous. Make no mistake about it. If you can't toughen up about death, you probably should not be risking your neck defying gravity using man made materials and machines prone to failure. I grew up on a farm. Surrounded by the woods. Death and life is all around me, all the time, and I am comfortable with it. I see what happens to things when they die. I don't focus on it, but I don't deny it, either.

    I have no problem talking about death. I'm not going to live forever. One day, maybe sooner than I expect, I'm going to die, and I'm not going to see it coming. You never do. It's going to be completely random. It might even be, macabre. Or it might be so much a non-event that it is a bad joke. If I could see how and why I died, I would be like... really? really? REALLLY? come on now? realllyyyy? that's what killed me? that's how I died, and the entire sparkly universe that is my own mind, came to an end? come on universe, wtf!!!!

    When I crank up my plane and bounce down that runway for the first time, I am going to know full well I can die from this. But it's a calculated risk, and I accept that risk. You got to accept that, that this really can kill you. You don't think about it when sitting in a car, because you've become dulled by thousands of non-eventful trips, but it's just as true too. I do enough homework on the ground and preparation as I can given the factors at work and the limitations of my resources to try and skew the odds as much as possible in my favor, but ultimately, I'm trying something new, and flying into mother nature in an untested plane by a beginner aircraft mechanic and there is plenty of chances something can go wrong. I live for that. It's exciting. I get to hustle, I get to dance, I get to adapt, I get to think quick on my toes then to save my own skin. Maybe I succeed, maybe I fail, but either way, I'm living life. Not sitting at home watching reruns on TV completely safe while I die a slow death from oh I don't know, obesity or brain rot or something :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019 at 5:24 AM
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  11. Jul 15, 2019 at 9:38 AM #2371

    BJC

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    It is easy to create legally binding documents that, with the force of law, ensure that one’s surviving assets are distributed consistent with one’s wishes.


    BJC
     
  12. Jul 15, 2019 at 1:34 PM #2372

    Hot Wings

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    They may be easy to create. After several thousand dollars of attorney fees I'd have to question the binding part. :mad:
     
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  13. Jul 15, 2019 at 1:54 PM #2373

    BJC

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    Setting up a trust or will and or joint ownership arrangements is just like buying an airplane; doing your homework up front pays big dividends.

    Probate laws, although similar, vary from state to state. For example, in some states, it is prudent to include “self proving” features in a will. Even a surviving spouse can have difficulty completing probate without such a provision. And lawyers fees are extremely variably, and not necessarily related to the quality of their service. How jointly owned assets are titled is important. For example, there is a big difference between “spouse and spouse” and “spouse or spouse.”


    BJC
     
  14. Jul 15, 2019 at 2:19 PM #2374

    Vigilant1

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    My technique to reduce any strife about my stuff after I'm gone will be to convert it all into things that have little value to others. Folks would fight over a big bank account, but if I convert the dough into a depreciating, expensive-to-store airplane, some rusty motorcycles, a bunch of unorganized tools strewn about, stacks of fun old books and manuals, etc--there won't be any graspers.
     
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  15. Jul 15, 2019 at 2:33 PM #2375

    BBerson

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    Probate is a legal process to take care of all legal affairs of an estate, with or without a will.
    Someone must file and create the probate process and pay the attorney to do that and the county fees.
    You can ask someone to be your representative if you want probate to distribute your stuff according to your will.

    Or, you can figure a plan without probate. Various ways to do that depending on your situation.
     
  16. Jul 15, 2019 at 4:09 PM #2376

    SheepdogRD

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    Start to finish, that post is some really good off-the-cuff prose. Well done.
     
  17. Jul 15, 2019 at 5:02 PM #2377

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    Skewing the odds in one's favor would be accomplished by getting the requisite training - in all aspects of the operation so that one doesn't have to increase risk by trying "something new." Better to follow the beaten path than to create your own adventure, or as we say in flying "don't be the creator of your emergency"

    I've only been flying airplanes for 42yrs and I've only averaged ~500 hrs a yr over that time so maybe I don't know what I'm taking about but in my world there is no such thing as being over prepared. There is no such thing as getting too much training on a task. I've never seen an accident where the probable cause was "pilot received too much training, pilot spent too much time on homework and preparation." I have seen crashes where the pilot was not prepared and did not understand the factors at work. Some people refer to that as "not knowing what you don't know." If resources are unnecessarily increasing the risk, time to apply the brakes and make an adjustment.

    This is where the psychobabble type say "Do you ever have thoughts of hurting yourself?"

    As an instructor I always asked the student to critique his/her performance at the end of the lesson. Some will rate their performance as above average when it isn't and some will rate performance as below average if it doesn't exceed ATP standards. The latter group is always more experienced than the former. Ponder that for a while.
     
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  18. Jul 15, 2019 at 7:14 PM #2378

    TerryM76

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    Sounds like you were looking at or in my house/shop/garage/backyard.
     
  19. Jul 16, 2019 at 3:49 PM #2379

    wktaylor

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    Unsure if these already stated...

    FAA-H-8083-2 Risk Management Handbook

    DOT/FAA/AM-11/10 Fatigue Risk Management in Aviation Maintenance: Current Best Practices and Potential Future Countermeasures

    AC120-100 Basics of Aviation Fatigue

    FAA AC120-103 Fatigue Risk Management Systems for Aviation Safety

    FAA AC120-115 Maintainer Fatigue Risk Management

    NTSB-SS-14-01 Drug Use Trends in Aviation: Assessing the Risk of Pilot Impairment




     
  20. Jul 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM #2380

    wktaylor

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