# Crashes in the News - Thread

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#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member
Steel definitely does, probably more than a few bolts in there.

#### BBerson

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Aluminum might not spark but friction might set it on fire. Something was burning. I imagine a ball of aluminum entering the atmosphere would burn up with a big flash.

#### choppergirl

##### Banned
Dang, if only just about everyone on board had been wearing parachutes....

Anyway, another crash and burn :-(

Still think, without a spark, no fire. Somethings wrong here.

For starters, maybe a coating on or embedded chemical compound in runways that would suppress Mechanical Sparks. Ditto on or in steel aircraft parts.

If I get to chose where to crash, it's going to be into some dirt I can slide a good long distance to a stop in.

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#### gtae07

##### Well-Known Member
Dang, if only just about everyone on board had been wearing parachutes....

Anyway, another crash and burn :-(

Still think, without a spark, no fire. Somethings wrong here.

If I get to chose where to crash, it's going to be into soft, wet dirt.
Parachutes don't help if you're too low to get out.

You don't need a spark to start a fire--a pair of hot engines with fuel spilling on them will do it.

#### Swampyankee

##### Well-Known Member
Dang, if only just about everyone on board had been wearing parachutes....

Anyway, another crash and burn :-(

Still think, without a spark, no fire. Somethings wrong here.

For starters, maybe a coating on or embedded chemical compound in runways that would suppress Mechanical Sparks. Ditto on or in steel aircraft parts.

If I get to chose where to crash, it's going to be into some dirt I can slide a good long distance to a stop in.
I think we've went over this before: when an airplane, which will definitely have hard metal parts (landing gear, engine parts, rivets) is sliding over concrete, gravel, or dirt, there will be sparks; they don't need to be visible. There will also be fuel mist and fuel vapor.

#### CharlieN

##### Active Member
That plane took off, pitched up, stalled and tumbled end over I believe twice and plummeted straight to the ground.
Everyone onboard had a chute on. Not much you can do when the plane is only off the ground a few seconds.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Lots of skydiving airplanes suffer from rapid shifts of the CG.

BJC

#### KAF

##### Well-Known Member
Dang, if only just about everyone on board had been wearing parachutes....

Anyway, another crash and burn :-(

Still think, without a spark, no fire. Somethings wrong here.

For starters, maybe a coating on or embedded chemical compound in runways that would suppress Mechanical Sparks. Ditto on or in steel aircraft parts.

If I get to chose where to crash, it's going to be into some dirt I can slide a good long distance to a stop in.
Many years ago I watched an airplane fold up the nose gear while landing on a grass strip. It stopped in an astonishingly short distance after it was upside down.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
..........

If I get to chose where to crash, it's going to be into some dirt I can slide a good long distance to a stop in.
NASA crash tests showed crash on concrete was much more survivable than a crash into dirt. Crash into dirt stopped too fast creating killer G loads and much more structural deformation. Lots of variables and exceptions.

#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member
Icon a5 flipped after landing with gear extended on lake in Kelowna yesterday.

#### BBerson

HBA Supporter
Seems like for $380,000 they could install an alert that announces: "gear down for asphalt landing" when the pilot pulls back the power or something. The LSA rule was for simple aircraft without retracts. The exception for seaplanes hardly makes the type safer. #### Hephaestus ##### Well-Known Member I really have to bite my tongue hard on commenting on the A5. The fact that it's us registered but operating in Canada, just a hunch because transport Canada didn't give them the same leeway as it got in the US... #### davidb ##### Well-Known Member Seems like for$380,000 they could install an alert that announces...
Not sure, but it likely has some sort of safety alert. The SeaRey alert function is triggered by airspeed and throttle setting typical for approaches to landing. When it senses a landing approach, it directs the pilot to push the water or runway button then confirms the gear is in the correct position. Alas, we are humans and capable of errors despite even the most sophisticated alert systems.

#### Charles_says

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
"Emergency crews say the plane is not leaking fuel.....
and they are trying to determine their next steps."

...Trying to determine their next steps???? How many steps are there???

Lessee...... there's getting the plane out of the water, getting the plane out of the water, and getting the plane out of the water....

WOW !! That many steps. Who'd -a thunk?
Ugh! ... Reporters. Clueless!

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
"Emergency crews say the plane is not leaking fuel.....
and they are trying to determine their next steps."

...Trying to determine their next steps???? How many steps are there???

Lessee...... there's getting the plane out of the water, getting the plane out of the water, and getting the plane out of the water....

WOW !! That many steps. Who'd -a thunk?
Ugh! ... Reporters. Clueless!
A local municipal emergency response crew totaled a Cessna on floats while trying to upright it following a flip over in a local lake. Their focus was “get the plane out of the water.” Unfortunately, they knew nothing about aircraft structures, and did not bother to take the time to find out how to accomplish their goal without further damaging the airplane.

BJC

#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member
Guaranteed it's leaking fuel and oil being upside-down. But what do I know

It's upside down in the water, it's a total loss to an insurance company anyway, in a car in a flood if your floorboards have gotten wet it's getting a salvage title - not rebuildable. I doubt a complex aircraft would get a pass. A 50/60s Cessna is pretty basic, an icon a5 - not so much.

But getting tow operators who know aircraft, and insurance companies (don't forget there's going to be a US vs Canada argument involved) to agree and work at resolving it...

#### Wanttaja

##### Well-Known Member
"Emergency crews say the plane is not leaking fuel.....
and they are trying to determine their next steps."

...Trying to determine their next steps???? How many steps are there???

Lessee...... there's getting the plane out of the water, getting the plane out of the water, and getting the plane out of the water....
Ideally, since the plane isn't leaking fuel or oil, they'd like to get the plane out of the water without breaching any of the tanks and starting a spill. So I think a bit of research into how to do that isn't a bad idea.

In the same vein, they may be limited in the capability of whatever hoists/cranes are available. A 1500-pound aircraft full of water weighs far, FAR more than 1500 pounds... unless you are very, very careful.

So I don't fault the emergency crews' reluctance to just wrap a log chain around the tail and haul it out.

Ron Wanttaja

#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member
In the same vein, they may be limited in the capability of whatever hoists/cranes are available. A 1500-pound aircraft full of water weighs far, FAR more than 1500 pounds... unless you are very, very careful.
The lakes a big recreation area, multiple cranes on barges in the area. The local towing company (staffed by some faces formerly of a tv show) has the equipment and usually hosts the annual wreckmaster aircraft recovery training course, the wreckmaster instructors for that course are also within easy driving vicinity.

(Yes I have some edumakashion in these fields)

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