Quantcast

Crashes in the News - Thread

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

tralika

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
92
Location
Wasilla Alaska

bmcj

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
13,514
Location
Fresno, California
I was trying to think what kind of seaplane uses "retractable pontoons". But as usual, the reporter got it wrong. It was a Beaver on floats and it appears he forgot to retract the "wheels".

I reports ’em liked a sees ‘em.

Thanks for that link.

I had the same suspicion you did, but allowed for the possibility that it might have been retractable pontoons.
 
Last edited:

bmcj

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
13,514
Location
Fresno, California
This happened yesterday afternoon at my home airport. The first news report mentions a witness saying the plane lost power on take off and tried to return to the airport. Later reports indicate the plane climbed steeply after take off and likely stalled. I don't recognize the plane in the photo and the pilot's name has not been released yet.

https://www.frontiersman.com/breaking_news/one-dead-following-plane-crash-in-wasilla/article_86b7a4be-833b-11e9-a1cd-83de9eaf7d90.html
The tail looks like a Giles 200 aerobatic plane. Do you have any of those up there?
 

MadRocketScientist

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,642
Location
Canterbury, New Zealand, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy.
I was trying to think what kind of seaplane uses "retractable pontoons". But as usual, the reporter got it wrong. It was a Beaver on floats and it appears he forgot to retract the "wheels".
It also made me chuckle how they were saying that they were going to get in another pilot to fly it out once it was up the right way!
 

Dennis K

Member
Joined
May 23, 2014
Messages
19
Location
Portsmouth, NH USA
I was trying to think what kind of seaplane uses "retractable pontoons". But as usual, the reporter got it wrong. It was a Beaver on floats and it appears he forgot to retract the "wheels".

Not that it applies to this story but the PBY Catalina has retractable wingtip floats.
 

Scooper

Active Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
36
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
The Frontiersman article has been updated, identifying the deceased pilot as 61-year-old John Hutchison of Big Lake.
 

choppergirl

Banned
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
1,682
Location
air-war.org
Helicopter Basket Rescue Fail


Either the rope is untwisting under tension, or helicopter rotor wash is spiral in nature (I think it's mostly chaotic), or third cause, which is my guess... non-uniform body shape is acting as fan blades, and first fan "output" is blowing on and causing a "second fan" to turn, just as one running box fan pointed at a stopped box fan, will cause it to turn.
 
Last edited:

D Hillberg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
1,301
Location
very low low low earth orbit
Helicopter Basket Rescue Fail


Either the rope is untwisting under tension, or helicopter rotor wash is spiral in nature (I think it's mostly chaotic), or third cause, which is my guess... non-uniform body shape is acting as fan blades, and first fan "output" is blowing on and causing a "second fan" to turn, just as one running box fan pointed at a stopped box fan, will cause it to turn.
A no twist cable is used with a bearing in the hook bumper, Breese Eastern [Good Rich] hoist.
Agusta helicopter crew didn't use a tag line from the stretcher to a ground personal. Most helicopters don't have a swirl in the rotor wash (disk loading) this one does... Hueys are better, Sikorsky 58s are best. this one ...... spin spin spin
 

choppergirl

Banned
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
1,682
Location
air-war.org
2 killed after small plane crashes in Long Island Field. Not pretty. At all.

https://nypost.com/2019/06/08/2-killed-after-small-plane-crashes-in-long-island-field/

How does a dead and out engine cause spilled AVgas though to burst into flame? It actually seems rather hard to ignite these fuels as a liquid. You got a hot muffler, and maybe a shorted battery "+" to the ground, causing a spark, as the only possible igniters. They're not scraping metal parts against asphalt (which might cause a shower of sparks) but landing in soft dirt.

I'm not sure a hot muffler would do it (a highly volatile fuel is going to just evaporate off), and the electrical system should be designed to guard against this with... well... a fuse... for starters... and secured insulation over the positive terminal and main cable.

These people didn't die because their engine quit, they died because their plane burst into flame during a controlled crash landing (the unbuckled in dog said "hey, I'm out the window").





BTW, Happy 2 year old birthday, Crashes in the News Thread.... from my own flipped over crashed airplane (not by me). Garnished for photo with tree branch through the cracked windshield.

This thread sponsored by Oceanic Airlines - we take you places you've never imagined
 
Last edited:

D Hillberg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
1,301
Location
very low low low earth orbit
2 killed after small plane crashes in Long Island Field. Not pretty. At all.

https://nypost.com/2019/06/08/2-killed-after-small-plane-crashes-in-long-island-field/

How does a dead and out engine cause spilled AVgas though to burst into flame? It actually seems rather hard to ignite these fuels as a liquid. You got a hot muffler, and maybe a shorted battery "+" to the ground, causing a spark, as the only possible igniters. They're not scraping metal parts against asphalt (which might cause a shower of sparks) but landing in soft dirt.

I'm not sure a hot muffler would do it (a highly volatile fuel is going to just evaporate off), and the electrical system should be designed to guard against this with... well... a fuse... for starters... and secured insulation over the positive terminal and main cable.

These people didn't die because their engine quit, they died because their plane burst into flame during a controlled crash landing (the unbuckled in dog said "hey, I'm out the window").





BTW, Happy 2 year old birthday, Crashes in the News Thread.... from my own flipped over crashed airplane (not by me). Garnished for photo with tree branch through the cracked windshield.

Breaking News: Aviation gasoline is flammable. Seeing the impact and ground scaring not surprised at the end result,
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
11,778
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
and the electrical system should be designed to guard against this with... well... a fuse... for starters... and secured insulation over the positive terminal and main cable.
Properly sized fuses and breakers limit the current in a conductor to the value that protects the conductor. It is entirely possible to have combustion-initiating sparks (or simply heat) from a properly fused conductor.


BJC
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
13,757
Location
Port Townsend WA
Witness reported left turn followed by steep decline. Might have been unsurvivable. 15 minutes climb time could be enough altitude for a skilled dead stick arrival. NTSB will look at it.
 

bmcj

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
13,514
Location
Fresno, California
Remember, a crumpled engine mount comes with the chance of positive terminals contacting parts of the negatively grounded structure.
 

Swampyankee

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
1,431
Location
Earth USA East Coast
There's a video of a NASA test of anti-misting kerosene which demonstrates, quite well, that crash and burn is very real.

A crash is going to generate a lot of heat, through friction, and metal rubbing against pavement, stones, or other pieces of metal will spark. It's not like throwing matches into a bucket; it's more like striking a spark in the spume from the gasoline equivalent of crashing ocean waves.
 
Last edited:

choppergirl

Banned
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
1,682
Location
air-war.org

I don't think low temperature heat alone is going to ignite a flammable liquid. Heck, I've microwaved motoroil and grease in a microwave before to heat it up. There is tons of heat in an engine compartment. You can even superheat fuel before it enters a carbeurator to increase fuel efficiency. You can drop lighted matches into the stuff and it doesn't catch fire.

You are going to need it aerosolized (mixed with a sufficient level of oxygen/air) and need a spark or open flame... in the same location as the aerosolized fumes (i.e, if the fumes are behind and around the wings, and your spark is in the engine compartment or closed cockpit on impact, no ignition). It's the fumes that are highly combustible, not the liquid itself.

It looks like a controlled landing that slid and went through a light hedge row, with the wings intact. I'm postulating they survived the crash somewhat, but not the fire. They may have been hurt or stunned or lacked sufficient time to escape, or the door been jammed or otherwise trapped inside a crumpled front end.

When I took a ride in a Mooney Ranger, the pilot insisted I hold the door cracked open taxing all over the airport until we were at the end of the runway ready to take off, for fear another airplane might run into us, damage the cockpit crash cage, and trap us inside. Perhaps if the passenger would of had the knowledge and time to crack the door open and hold it, they might of escaped? Just a postulation.

Even aerosolized to the ideal ratio, gasoline and oxygen is not easy to ignite from heat alone.

Try this experiment. Run your car engine until it's hot, up to operating temperature of 170F. Switch it off. Unplug the main wire into the distributor (or all your spark plug wires). Now try to crank it. Rrrrr.... rrrrr.... rrrr. My guess is, from my own real world experience, is it's not going to crank, even though your cylinders are very, very hot and the gasoline and air is being compressed which makes it even hotter. No spark, no boom. Further, the mixture is exiting right out the center of the exhaust headers (very hot) and exhaust pipe. Still no boom.

You need a really hot spot somewhere in the combustion camber or residually on the spark plug (acting as a glow plug) or some high compression going on to make it diesal from the diseling effect.

My opinion: These people should of survived this crash. Whatever ignited the fuel vapors from this plane when the engine was dead, should of been more insulated. I can bend and scrape slick metal against each other all day without making sparks... you need some serious speed (or RPM like in a cutoff wheel) of rough surface(asphalt) against metal to do that.

Consider, it can't be metal airplane parts against airplane parts, because all airplane parts are traveling roughly in the same direction on impact and their speed is relative to one another. They may impact the dirt at 100mph, but relative to each other, bending or even scraping, their speed won't be entirely conducive to sparking.

Now, if you have a rough surface and the materials conducive to it... the speed required is much lower... like striking a match or the flint against a wheel in a lighter. There's not a whole lot of rough surfaces in an airplane, or the use of flint. You can make a striking or glancing blow on a nail with an axe head or a hammer (steel on steel) and make a spark, but it's not easy or consistent.

If i were the crash investigator, my question would not just be what caused the engine out... yes, there's something to be discovered there... but what started the fire? And can we do something to neutralize or eliminate that ignition source in other planes. Whether it be to coat some parts with some spark arresting substance, or wrap some exhaust header pipes in insulation tape, or have a kill switch that disconnects the battery from the entire electrical system. What caused the ignition exactly, so we can add the weight exactly where it will prevent that.
 
Last edited:

narfi

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
909
Location
Alaska
Throw a match in a 5gal bucket of 100LL and it probably won't light.
Pour a 5gal bucket of 100LL over a 55gal barrel full of dry trash and throw a match in it, it will most certainly light. You probably wont have any eyebrows left either.

Twist and tear off your firewall forward including fuel lines and battery and solenoid cables. Which scenario does this most likely resemble?
 

Steve C

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
153
Location
Lodi, CA
There are plenty of rocks on the ground that can make a spark when struck. Not saying that's the cause, but it's possible.
 
Top