Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. May 31, 2019 #2281

    tralika

    tralika

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    This happened yesterday afternoon at my home airport. The first news report mentions a witness saying the plane lost power on take off and tried to return to the airport. Later reports indicate the plane climbed steeply after take off and likely stalled. I don't recognize the plane in the photo and the pilot's name has not been released yet.

    https://www.frontiersman.com/breaki...cle_86b7a4be-833b-11e9-a1cd-83de9eaf7d90.html
     
  2. May 31, 2019 #2282

    bmcj

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    I reports ’em liked a sees ‘em.

    Thanks for that link.

    I had the same suspicion you did, but allowed for the possibility that it might have been retractable pontoons.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  3. May 31, 2019 #2283

    bmcj

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    The tail looks like a Giles 200 aerobatic plane. Do you have any of those up there?
     
  4. Jun 1, 2019 #2284

    MadRocketScientist

    MadRocketScientist

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    It also made me chuckle how they were saying that they were going to get in another pilot to fly it out once it was up the right way!
     
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  5. Jun 3, 2019 #2285

    Dennis K

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    Not that it applies to this story but the PBY Catalina has retractable wingtip floats.
     
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  6. Jun 4, 2019 #2286

    RJW

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    Looks like they destroyed the plane during the recovery.
     
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  7. Jun 5, 2019 #2287

    Scooper

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    The Frontiersman article has been updated, identifying the deceased pilot as 61-year-old John Hutchison of Big Lake.
     
  8. Jun 7, 2019 #2288

    choppergirl

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    Helicopter Basket Rescue Fail



    Either the rope is untwisting under tension, or helicopter rotor wash is spiral in nature (I think it's mostly chaotic), or third cause, which is my guess... non-uniform body shape is acting as fan blades, and first fan "output" is blowing on and causing a "second fan" to turn, just as one running box fan pointed at a stopped box fan, will cause it to turn.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  9. Jun 7, 2019 #2289

    D Hillberg

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    A no twist cable is used with a bearing in the hook bumper, Breese Eastern [Good Rich] hoist.
    Agusta helicopter crew didn't use a tag line from the stretcher to a ground personal. Most helicopters don't have a swirl in the rotor wash (disk loading) this one does... Hueys are better, Sikorsky 58s are best. this one ...... spin spin spin
     
  10. Jun 8, 2019 #2290

    choppergirl

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    2 killed after small plane crashes in Long Island Field. Not pretty. At all.

    https://nypost.com/2019/06/08/2-killed-after-small-plane-crashes-in-long-island-field/

    How does a dead and out engine cause spilled AVgas though to burst into flame? It actually seems rather hard to ignite these fuels as a liquid. You got a hot muffler, and maybe a shorted battery "+" to the ground, causing a spark, as the only possible igniters. They're not scraping metal parts against asphalt (which might cause a shower of sparks) but landing in soft dirt.

    I'm not sure a hot muffler would do it (a highly volatile fuel is going to just evaporate off), and the electrical system should be designed to guard against this with... well... a fuse... for starters... and secured insulation over the positive terminal and main cable.

    These people didn't die because their engine quit, they died because their plane burst into flame during a controlled crash landing (the unbuckled in dog said "hey, I'm out the window").



    [​IMG]

    BTW, Happy 2 year old birthday, Crashes in the News Thread.... from my own flipped over crashed airplane (not by me). Garnished for photo with tree branch through the cracked windshield.

    This thread sponsored by Oceanic Airlines - we take you places you've never imagined
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  11. Jun 8, 2019 #2291

    D Hillberg

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    Breaking News: Aviation gasoline is flammable. Seeing the impact and ground scaring not surprised at the end result,
     
  12. Jun 9, 2019 #2292

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    It only takes heat. Crumpling metal generates heat. A lot of heat.
     
  13. Jun 9, 2019 #2293

    BJC

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    Properly sized fuses and breakers limit the current in a conductor to the value that protects the conductor. It is entirely possible to have combustion-initiating sparks (or simply heat) from a properly fused conductor.


    BJC
     
  14. Jun 9, 2019 #2294

    BBerson

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    Witness reported left turn followed by steep decline. Might have been unsurvivable. 15 minutes climb time could be enough altitude for a skilled dead stick arrival. NTSB will look at it.
     
  15. Jun 9, 2019 #2295

    bmcj

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    Remember, a crumpled engine mount comes with the chance of positive terminals contacting parts of the negatively grounded structure.
     
  16. Jun 9, 2019 #2296

    Swampyankee

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    There's a video of a NASA test of anti-misting kerosene which demonstrates, quite well, that crash and burn is very real.

    A crash is going to generate a lot of heat, through friction, and metal rubbing against pavement, stones, or other pieces of metal will spark. It's not like throwing matches into a bucket; it's more like striking a spark in the spume from the gasoline equivalent of crashing ocean waves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  17. Jun 9, 2019 #2297

    choppergirl

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    I don't think low temperature heat alone is going to ignite a flammable liquid. Heck, I've microwaved motoroil and grease in a microwave before to heat it up. There is tons of heat in an engine compartment. You can even superheat fuel before it enters a carbeurator to increase fuel efficiency. You can drop lighted matches into the stuff and it doesn't catch fire.

    You are going to need it aerosolized (mixed with a sufficient level of oxygen/air) and need a spark or open flame... in the same location as the aerosolized fumes (i.e, if the fumes are behind and around the wings, and your spark is in the engine compartment or closed cockpit on impact, no ignition). It's the fumes that are highly combustible, not the liquid itself.

    It looks like a controlled landing that slid and went through a light hedge row, with the wings intact. I'm postulating they survived the crash somewhat, but not the fire. They may have been hurt or stunned or lacked sufficient time to escape, or the door been jammed or otherwise trapped inside a crumpled front end.

    When I took a ride in a Mooney Ranger, the pilot insisted I hold the door cracked open taxing all over the airport until we were at the end of the runway ready to take off, for fear another airplane might run into us, damage the cockpit crash cage, and trap us inside. Perhaps if the passenger would of had the knowledge and time to crack the door open and hold it, they might of escaped? Just a postulation.

    Even aerosolized to the ideal ratio, gasoline and oxygen is not easy to ignite from heat alone.

    Try this experiment. Run your car engine until it's hot, up to operating temperature of 170F. Switch it off. Unplug the main wire into the distributor (or all your spark plug wires). Now try to crank it. Rrrrr.... rrrrr.... rrrr. My guess is, from my own real world experience, is it's not going to crank, even though your cylinders are very, very hot and the gasoline and air is being compressed which makes it even hotter. No spark, no boom. Further, the mixture is exiting right out the center of the exhaust headers (very hot) and exhaust pipe. Still no boom.

    You need a really hot spot somewhere in the combustion camber or residually on the spark plug (acting as a glow plug) or some high compression going on to make it diesal from the diseling effect.

    My opinion: These people should of survived this crash. Whatever ignited the fuel vapors from this plane when the engine was dead, should of been more insulated. I can bend and scrape slick metal against each other all day without making sparks... you need some serious speed (or RPM like in a cutoff wheel) of rough surface(asphalt) against metal to do that.

    Consider, it can't be metal airplane parts against airplane parts, because all airplane parts are traveling roughly in the same direction on impact and their speed is relative to one another. They may impact the dirt at 100mph, but relative to each other, bending or even scraping, their speed won't be entirely conducive to sparking.

    Now, if you have a rough surface and the materials conducive to it... the speed required is much lower... like striking a match or the flint against a wheel in a lighter. There's not a whole lot of rough surfaces in an airplane, or the use of flint. You can make a striking or glancing blow on a nail with an axe head or a hammer (steel on steel) and make a spark, but it's not easy or consistent.

    If i were the crash investigator, my question would not just be what caused the engine out... yes, there's something to be discovered there... but what started the fire? And can we do something to neutralize or eliminate that ignition source in other planes. Whether it be to coat some parts with some spark arresting substance, or wrap some exhaust header pipes in insulation tape, or have a kill switch that disconnects the battery from the entire electrical system. What caused the ignition exactly, so we can add the weight exactly where it will prevent that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  18. Jun 9, 2019 #2298

    BJC

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    Don't just think; educate yourself so that you know.

    Research autoigniting temperature, among other related things.


    BJC
     
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  19. Jun 9, 2019 #2299

    narfi

    narfi

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    Throw a match in a 5gal bucket of 100LL and it probably won't light.
    Pour a 5gal bucket of 100LL over a 55gal barrel full of dry trash and throw a match in it, it will most certainly light. You probably wont have any eyebrows left either.

    Twist and tear off your firewall forward including fuel lines and battery and solenoid cables. Which scenario does this most likely resemble?
     
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  20. Jun 10, 2019 #2300

    Steve C

    Steve C

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    There are plenty of rocks on the ground that can make a spark when struck. Not saying that's the cause, but it's possible.
     

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