Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. May 18, 2019 #2221

    Daleandee

    Daleandee

    Daleandee

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    Not really a crash (although he did clip a vehicle) but what seems a rather avoidable situation i.e. too much air in the fuel tanks:

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/pilot-ma...-on-florida-highway-after-running-out-of-fuel

    Good to know there were no serious injuries. Don't want to badger the pilot too much as I have no idea as to why he ran out of fuel - but there is seldom a good reason for doing so ...

    Dale
    N319WF
     
  2. May 18, 2019 #2222

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

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    Funny, there was a time when a clock, mag heading, and estimated wind was all we needed to navigate successfully. Along with that nice big sectional map. Did that for years, never got lost. Flying all the way from the Southwest to the Midwest.

    My personal aircraft today has triple GPS. And a two axis autopilot. About as well equipped as many transport aircraft today. And with more "state of the art" features, such as real time synthetic vision.

    If getting lost were to happen, there simply is no good excuse!
     
  3. May 18, 2019 #2223

    BJC

    BJC

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    From several years ago, during Sun n Fun early arrivals, heard on the tower frequency, paraphrased.

    “Lakeland tower, Warbird T-28”

    “Go ahead, T-28.”

    “Lakeland tower, we are inbound. Do you have me in sight?”

    “T-28, where are you.”

    “Lakeland tower, T-28 is not sure where we are. My navigator in the back seat dropped the GPS and can’t retrieve it in flight ...”


    BJC
     
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  4. May 18, 2019 #2224

    Daleandee

    Daleandee

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    That's funny right there, I don't care who you are ...

    Years ago when teaching ultralight pilots I met a student that was going on his first long cross country and I decided to fly my plane and follow along. I pulled out my knee-board and asked if he wanted a copy of my way points or routing information. He said "no thanks" and pointed to his GPS. I asked what he might do if that one were to fail and he produced another from his coat pocket. I then asked what he would do if by some strange coincidence both happened to fail him. He then reached under the seat ... o_O

    Dale
    N319WF
     
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  5. May 18, 2019 #2225

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    You sure you aren't talking about me? Yes, I was trained to do "pilotage" and could do it if I had to. But, I would never start out on a long cross country with nothing but a compass and sectional. It's mentally taxing, and there is always some anxiety that the next waypoint won't show up and confusion will ensue! A friend of mine bought an ultralight in Atlanta and flew it home to KC with nothing but a road map (no compass either)...better man than me.
     
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  6. May 18, 2019 #2226

    Richard6

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    So he flew IFR then !
     
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  7. May 18, 2019 #2227

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    I'm concerned that new pilots will be miss out on a very important bit of character development. That feeling when the chart isn't matching what you see below, and neither do you see anything distinctive enough below to find on the chart. And it's been like this for awhile. And maybe that last turnpoint also wasn't what you thought it was--the road intersection wasn't exactly the configuration shown on the chart. Now you've flown past the timing for the next turn point, still no match to the chart. You realize you are lost, er, I mean 'not exactly sure of your location.' Fuel--wow, even an hour's "reserve" suddenly doesn't feel like a lot, since you might be hunting around a bit. It's a humbling thing, and if you've always had the comfort of flying on the GPS "magenta line" you'll miss learning a little lesson about humility and what "tight spot" means.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  8. May 19, 2019 #2228

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

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    You don't need to fly to get this feeling. I remember a trip to El Paso to pick up a plane. Did a straight through drive from Wyoming. About 3 in the morning in the middle of nowhere I see a sign that says "Las Vegas - next exit".

    Thought I was 500 miles off course............Thought "I'm never going to make the appointment now." :eek:
     
  9. May 19, 2019 #2229

    robertl

    robertl

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    When I got my PPL in 1974, there was no GPS and the Cessna 150 didn't have a head set. Never even knew there was such a thing as a head set for an airplane. I had two sets in my 1971 Pinto hooked up to the 8 track tape player, but nobody I knew used one in an airplane, after all, we had the hand held mic ! And yes, I did get lost, (well, unsure of my present location because I could see nothing that matched the chart), on my home bound leg of the long cross country, using the VOR no less. Forgot to switch the, TO/FROM knob! Checked the fuel, all good, plenty of daylight left, now climb and start looking. I saw a small town so I dropped down to 500 feet and circled the water tank to see what town this was........... No name on the tank ! Dang ! Climbed up again and lo and behold, there's a small paved airstrip off my right wing so I made a bee line for it. Made a "Hot" landing, well, hot for a 150, and had to flag down a Hwy. Dept. Truck to ask, "where am I" because there were no buildings on the property. When they told me where I was, I just got the sectional out and plotted another course for home. I was only off by about 20 miles ! Lesson learned!
     
  10. May 19, 2019 #2230

    Bill-Higdon

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  11. May 19, 2019 #2231

    n45bm

    n45bm

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    Been there, done that. Feeling a little of that "humility" is understating the real feelings of stupidity you have when it happens to you. I've flown from Houston to Oshkosh with just a compass and sectionals and I remember circling a water tower in a small town trying to read the town's name so I could locate myself on the map. Luckily, I did, and continued on merrily. On another occasion while flying my Baby Ace home that I had just bought, I was happily following this road south on my WAC chart when the road down there turned left, but the road on my chart didn't. Now what? I landed on a field next to one that farmers were working in. So, here I come, approaching them and asking where I was. They must have thought I came from Mars, but when I showed them my plane on the next field they said "Well, goddam Sam, this guy's an AVIATOR!" Funniest thing I ever heard.
     
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  12. May 20, 2019 #2232

    Richard6

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  13. May 20, 2019 #2233

    Mike Stewart

    Mike Stewart

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    There's something wrong with you. Maybe you haven't had a bowel movement in a few days. Pilots are being conditioned more and more to watch various screens - keeping their attention inside the cockpit instead of outside when operating down low. It's becoming more and more of a problem and I used this incident to put that thought in pilots' heads. Of course I have no idea what caused this incident but anytime there is a low-level collision it's good to keep in mind that pilots' attention is not so "see and avoid" as it always has been until ADS-B came along - something which actually started in Alaska as you may or may not know. People who so quickly start calling other people "ingnorant SOB's" with no provocation usually turn out to be fourteen-year olds or Alzheimer's candidates. Which are you?
     
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  14. May 20, 2019 #2234

    BJC

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    If what has been reported is accurate - that the higher speed aircraft, with poor forward and downward visibility, descended into the slower aircraft - then, in the absence of clearing S-turns during the descent, an ADS-B target may well have led the pilot to have avoided the collision.


    BJC
     
  15. May 20, 2019 #2235

    Wanttaja

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    The question that then arises is two fold:

    1. Were either/both of the accident aircraft equipped with ADS-B *In*? Remember, it isn't required.
    2. If so, were AUDIO warnings suppressed during the flight?

    The pilots of these flights were also expected to act as tour guides, pointing out interesting features and discussing the history of the area. It sounds like this area has pretty heavy traffic. The pilot may have inhibited the audio warnings to reduce interruptions. There may have been a tablet displaying the data, but, again, the pilots may have been looking their passengers as they answered questions.

    The other factor is the desire to not frighten the passengers with audio warnings of traffic. Most of us who fly new folks try to remember to tell them that the stall warning is not the Horn o' Doom; certainly a computer voice warning of nearby traffic might tend to upset the passengers. It sounds like a bit of fairly busy airspace; not unlikely that the warnings might come pretty often.

    This was not a passenger operation where the pilot's only consideration was delivering the passengers to their destination. This was a tourist operation, with the flight being part of a very expensive optional package for cruise-ship passengers. At the end of any cruise ship excursion, the participants are handed rating cards for turning-in to the cruise line. The cruise line then uses the participants' experiences to determine whether to continue a given excursion package. If too many reviews have comments on being frightened by the warnings of traffic, that particular excursion company may not have their contract renewed.

    So there's an economic benefit to suppressing ADS-B warnings.

    Here in Seattle a few years back, there was a fatal accident involving the local "Duck Tours" operation...using amphibious trucks to give tours of the land and sea environment of Seattle. While the accident was due to mechanical failures, one result from the accident is that Seattle no longer allows the Duck Tour drivers to be the tour guides...each truck must carry a separate person to provide the narrative and interact with the passengers.

    Depending on the result of the NTSB investigation into the Alaska accident, this may end up being implemented for these aerial tour operations. Note that this is would cause a major rise in the cost of these tours.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  16. May 20, 2019 #2236

    BJC

    BJC

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    I agree with all you wrote, Ron.

    My post was intended to be a simple counter point to the assertion that
    by pointing out that one could describe a scenario where ADS-B could have had a higher probability of preventing the collision than simply “looking out the windscreen.”

    I try to avoid pronouncements of what caused an event without first having much more information than we will see here.


    BJC
     
  17. May 20, 2019 #2237

    BBerson

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    If both pilots had working ADS-B the collision would almost certainly be unlikely. If both pilots are watching the screen it's like having two radar controllers. The problem is when a pilot with ADS-B assumes every other plane has ADS-B and doesn't scan outside for those that don't have it. So can't blame ADS-B, whether they had it or not. A pilot should and can be scanning while talking. However, the see and avoid method is hardly fool proof.
    This will be an interesting report.
     
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  18. May 21, 2019 #2238

    radfordc

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    Given the choices....it has to be Alzheimer's. But in my defense, commenting authoritatively about something when you don't know any facts is sort of the definition of "ignorance". The SOB part was me losing my cool...I really do hate it when that happens. Apologies.
     
  19. May 21, 2019 #2239

    Geraldc

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    I personally have no trouble with people making assumptions and putting forward scenarios about the cause of accidents like this because in the discussion that follows there are many things that we can learn that may save our lives.
    The purpose of this site is learning from the experience of others.
     
  20. May 21, 2019 #2240

    radfordc

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    Learning from experience is valuable. But, shouldn't that mean knowing the facts about an accident and then determining what could have made a difference? If facts aren't necessary then we don't need to discuss actual events at all...just make up any scenario or hypothesis you like and start from there. It seems that is in fact what often happens here. Almost everything guessed at before the facts are determined turns out to be wrong. I'm especially adverse to blaming pilots first before any real information is available...but I do seem to be in the minority.
     
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