Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. May 15, 2019 #2181

    Doggzilla

    Doggzilla

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    Im going to agree with him here. Most of my GA flight experience is around lake environments and float planes attract pilots who tend to be much less observant because they view them as toys. This often creates a hazardous environment around them.

    Ive had two near collisions with float planes where they were in my blind spot and I was out their left window. We missed by only a few dozen feet each time, which is probably because they didnt bother using the right pressure on the altimeter.

    When I was a student there were routine cases of the local float planes flying near maneuvering aircraft at such close distances they would have to be blind to have missed them.
     
  2. May 15, 2019 #2182

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    And no one ever digs up a perfectly good grass meadow to construct a strip mall. No one ever strings new power lines to service the new strip mall. Those roads or a parking lot might be wide open when the Google Earth photo is taken on a weekday, but crammed with cars on Saturday. I've got a Buddhist temple a short way off the departure end of my home drome...beautiful parking lot and open field, but don't try it on Bon Odori.

    The point is, this is NOT something you can decide in advance. If my engine starts running rough, I'm going to focus on looking for open pavement or grass and using what little ability I have to instantly decide if my limping aircraft is going to be able to make it there. I don't need to have to dodge somewhere else when the beautiful open field in the year-old Google image seems to have bulldozers on it. I fly deadstick approaches in my draggy open-cockpit airplane by throwing a brick out and flying formation with it; an open parking lot two blocks too far is going to be less important than looking for the softest thing to hit within the ability of the plane to glide. If the airplane can be re-used afterwards, that's a bonus. I'll make my play based on what's visible from the cockpit, not what was on Google Earth a year ago.

    Got no problem with folks using Google Earth or other tools to check out a new location prior to flying there; I do it myself. I'll certainly note if the area is congested.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  3. May 15, 2019 #2183

    Doggzilla

    Doggzilla

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    And that's just a risk that exists. The alternative is to be completely unprepared at all.

    Using that mentality no safety measure should ever be attempted, because they all have their own shortcomings as well.
     
  4. May 15, 2019 #2184

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    Whether those two pilots were observant or not, I (nor you) can say right now. I'm not going to start out by assuming they were negligent!
     
  5. May 15, 2019 #2185

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    Are you sure? This report makes it seem they weren't together: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ne-says/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e611e9e7bfe2

    "The two planes collided Monday at 1:08 p.m. local time, according to Princess Cruises, about eight nautical miles off Ketchikan, Alaska.

    One plane, an Otter seaplane operated by Taquan Air, was carrying 10 guests from the cruise ship as well as a pilot, returning from a tour of the nearby Misty Fjords National Monument. The other aircraft, the Beaver seaplane operated by an “independent tour,” according to the cruise line, carried four Royal Princess passengers and a pilot."
     
  6. May 15, 2019 #2186

    BJC

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    Mike:

    Is that just your poor attempt to say that you don’t like ADS-B, or do you really believe what you wrote?


    BJC
     
  7. May 15, 2019 #2187

    bmcj

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    I’m sure that was just meant as a joke about over-reliance on technology, but perhaps a poorly timed joke because there were fatalities. I doubt if he (or anyone) truly believes they were watching their ADS-B’s instead of watching outside.

    I suppose it is possible that either pilot may have relaxed their visual scanning if they were lulled into complacency by a lack of ADS-B warning, but I doubt that... especially in Alaska.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  8. May 15, 2019 #2188

    D Hillberg

    D Hillberg

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    Fact: The more toys inside the cockpit the less you look out side - Like these new "back up" screens in a new car = The idiots stop looking outside and back into an accident...

    The "smarter" machines get the dumber the monkeys get...
     
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  9. May 15, 2019 #2189

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    Google Maps is great, but the problem is that they feed different images depending on your computer platform and software version. We’ve compared feeds to Macs and PC’s, and the even between feeds on the same platform but with different versions of browsers, and found as much as a two year discrepancy between images. I’ve even seen one image that showed open, undeveloped fields while the computer next to me showed a fully built neighborhood and business center in the same location.
     
  10. May 16, 2019 #2190

    BBerson

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    I am not sure, that's why I said likely. Usually the cruise ships put all the passengers with one company. I have seen "flights" of six or seven airplanes. If they were not formation communicating then why didn't ADS-B work?
     
  11. May 16, 2019 #2191

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    Just read another report that says they weren't in formation. The Otter apparently descended into the Beaver.
     
  12. May 16, 2019 #2192

    BBerson

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    I didn't read any reports that said they were not in formation, have you?
    If so, the question then is why didn't ADS-B or normal Air Taxi communication on CTAF reporting over scenic areas prevent this.
    My understanding is all Part 135 in Alaska were given ADS-B by the FAA to test it.
     
  13. May 16, 2019 #2193

    Wanttaja

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    Local news last night showed a map with the tracks of the airplanes; they were converging at a fairly acute angle, not parallel. The gaps in the Beaver's track implies that this was based on ground radar coverage.
    [​IMG]

    As far as why ADS-B didn't work in this case, I am reminded of the issue raised here in Seattle after the Duck Boats fatalities a couple of years back: The drivers doubling as tour guides. It may be that the pilots in this crash were distracted by the need to narrate the flight for the passengers, and ADS-B dropped off their scan. Audio alerts may have been disabled to avoid upsetting the passengers.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  14. May 16, 2019 #2194

    BBerson

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    I guess the surviving pilot might have some answers.
     
  15. May 16, 2019 #2195

    tralika

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    Not true.

    As soon as I heard about this I was pretty sure it was going to be a classic case of the faster plane (Otter) overtaking and descending into the slower plane (Beaver). I have fair amount of time in both models. Like most planes, the forward visibility in both of these aircraft is not great in the descent. The Turbine Otter flies much faster than the Piston Beaver, especially in the descent. It's important to do S turns when descending, especially in a fast airplane. If your in a slow airplane your less likely to overtake someone and must be concerned about being overtaken. Unfortunately it's just about impossible to look behind and above you without some significant maneuvering.

    Were approaching the middle of Mid-Air Collision season so everybody be careful out there.
    (Mid Air Collision Season: January 1st through December 31st)
     
  16. May 16, 2019 #2196

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    The other factor regarding formation flight is that these were two different tour operations. Not as likely to arrange a formation flight...after all, any pictures your passengers post to social media just shows your competitor.

    Also, I seem to recall that formation flying is prohibited in some passenger-carrying operations. Might be just Part 135.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  17. May 16, 2019 #2197

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    Not all of Alaska, but the FAA did equip the Yukon Delta and Southeast Alaska with ADS-B in the Capstone Project. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/Archival/
    I thought the other operators bought it with their own money, at least the bigger operators.
     
  18. May 16, 2019 #2198

    D Hillberg

    D Hillberg

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    Look at those ground tracks, GPS paving the way like a guided missile - right to the point of impact, Quicker turn arounds for mo money!

    mo automation mo bling bling in the cockpit mo complacency mo accidents
     
  19. May 16, 2019 #2199

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    It's a 91 reg:
    § 91.111 Operating near other aircraft.
    (c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight.
     
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  20. May 16, 2019 #2200

    Vigilant1

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    So, what will the next sideline sniper say?: "The geometry and aircraft blind spots made old-school see-and-avoid very difficult. I'll bet those guys were wasting their time craning their heads around when they should have had their eyes inside on the ADS-B."

    IIRC, Pops was in a bad wreck that sounds a lot like this situation.
     

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