Continental 4A084 SDS EFI Installation

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by rv6ejguy, Oct 13, 2018.

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  1. Oct 13, 2018 #1

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    One of my customers installed our EFI on his 084 engine. Just got it running a couple days ago. We've had a few others do this conversion in the past with just the EFI. This is the first one with EFI and spark control. Pretty neat.

    jimj2.jpg jimj3.jpg
     
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  2. Oct 14, 2018 #2

    pwood66889

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    Am interested, should you get time to post more.
    Percy in NW FL, USA
     
  3. Oct 14, 2018 #3

    addicted2climbing

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    Weight and thrust with Prop info please...
     
  4. Oct 14, 2018 #4

    rv6ejguy

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    Just started runs a few days ago and willing likely be a while before it's all tuned. I wouldn't expect a lot more power over the carb though. Weight of the EFI system would be around 11 pounds. Not sure what the stock mag weighed.
     
  5. Oct 16, 2018 #5

    addicted2climbing

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    I found a video of one on a Raceair Skylite and oddly enough I am building one.. I did notice he modified the airframe quite a bit with different landing gear and tail feathers, but he has videos of him flying this engine and its peaked my interest... It must be 35lbs heavier than the Rotax 277 it was designed for...



    Sp now my question to the OP. With the change to efi and electronic ignition, what is the thrust and weight of this engine... Please more info and the FWF in general.
     
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  6. Oct 16, 2018 #6

    addicted2climbing

    addicted2climbing

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    Another video:
     
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  7. Nov 7, 2018 #7

    Armilite

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    ========================================================================
    There was an 084 Yahoo Group where there is a ton of Info also on most of these 032, 042, 084 Continetal, Old Cheap Military Generator Motors. ALL their HP is Rated at 10,000ft, so the 084 was 20hp@10,000ft!

    The 084 (84ci or 1376.513cc) is 45hp at Sea Level at I believe the Stock Rpm, I forget what that was now, but I think it's 3300rpm. Weak Point was the Connecting Rod Bolts need replaced with ARP Bolts. I believe for Upgrades you could go up a little in Intake Valve Size, add a Tuned Ehaust, Bigger Carb, or EFI, go with Higher CR, and add Custom Cam. With just the basic stuff, K&N Air Filter, Carb, Rod Bolts, Push Rods and Roller Rockers, Reduce as much Weight off as you can, it was a 1000hr TBO Engine back then.

    There was a Guy, I think his name was (Les Smutt) who knew more about them 084's than anybody else. He is long gone now. He did everything there was to them, even EFI way back then.

    You can't Over Bore them Cylinders very much either. If you go very High on the CR, then you need better Rods also. If I remember right they used Stock 7.0cr, so I wouldn't go much over 9.0cr with the Stock Rods. If you turn it much Higher Rpm then you have to run a Smaller Less efficent Prop or add a Redrive. The Biggest Problem with them was HP made for their Weight! Their was some Redrives for them also.

    Once you verify what the Stock Rpm is, plug the Numbers into the Peak Flow/HP Class. An 84ci, 4 Stroke at 3300rpm to make 45hp comes in at 85%.
    http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator3.php

    I do know one was Hot Rodded once, a long time ago, but I don't know what they all did to it, but it Dynoed 60hp, but it didn't last very many Hours!
    84ci at 95% efficient at 3900rpm = 60hp. Custom Cam, K&N Air Filter, Bigger Carb, Higher CR, Rod Bolts, Roller Rockers, etc., is probably what they did.

    I don't remember anyone trying a Turbo on one. That would be a nice Test to see. Maybe use 2750rpm Direct Drive with EFI and a Turbo! It all depends on how much $$$ & TIME you want to spend doing R&D. There too Heavy for most USA Part 103 Airframes, and at only 45hp, there to Low of HP for Weight for most Kitplanes. Most People want or need 50-100hp. So they have always been in the middle either too Heavy or not enough HP! Same for the Rotax 2 Strokes 377UL(35hp) and 447UL(40hp) to Heavy for most Part 103 Airframes and to Low of HP for most Kitplanes. That's why the 503UL(50hp) was so Popular! People want 50hp to 100hp.

    Kinda like these New Briggs V Twins, everyone is frothing at the mouth over. Most of them are too Heavy for most USA Part 103 Airframes, and not enough HP for most of the bigger Kitplanes. You can Soup them up to make more HP, but your TBO will go down.

    Personanlly, I haven't heard of any of these Briggs V Twins making High 500, 750, 1000hr TBO Hours either.
     
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  8. Nov 7, 2018 #8

    Aerowerx

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    I am a member of that group. It is still there but I haven't heard anything from it in a LLOOONNNGGG time.

    By the way, I have an 084 that I don't think I will ever use, so if anyone is interested....
     
  9. Nov 8, 2018 #9

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Actually, there were two different 084 Groups. I have a 084 on a 10kw Generator. With the Shortage of 032, 042, 084 parts for those Engines today, I would look at the V Twins if you want a 4 Stroke. Mulitple Brands and Muliple CC Sizes avilable, with a lot's of after market parts for them. A Briggs 420cc/25.6ci can make 25hp. You have many mulitple Sizes depending on Brand name, just Briggs 420cc, 570cc, 627cc, 993cc, and there maybe a few others. There are many How To Videos on Youtube for the Briggs & Hondas.
     
  10. Nov 8, 2018 #10

    Aerowerx

    Aerowerx

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    What attracted me to the 4A084, when I was thinking about building my own plane, was that there was nothing you had to do to the innards to convert it to aircraft use. All the mods are "external". Because, IIRC, it was originally designed as a drone aircraft engine, besides being built by Continental.

    It is supposed to be a low compression, reliable, long life engine. Any internal mods may detract from that.

    Another source of info are the airboat forums. The 4A084 might be more popular there than for aircraft.
     
  11. Nov 9, 2018 #11

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    That Less Smutt guy(Not sure how it was Spelled) who knew them 084's inside out, Highly recommended changing the Stock Rod Bolts to ARP Bolts. Easy to do, just drop Oil Pan and Swap Out Rod Bolts. Used a real low CR, 7.0 I think. Today, you have EFI, Engine Coatings, cheap Tools for Cutting & Grinding on them to rduce Weight.

    Long Life, depends on Who is Flying & Maintaining it!
     
  12. Nov 10, 2018 #12

    AJLiberatore

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    Ross,

    Your work never ceases to amaze me and also your clients. I spent some time in the externals of the Turbofan world back in the day, and the overall packaging on this install is IMHO is industrial art. This engine has me wondering what it would do on something DA-5/Da-11 hybrid, Quickie, AR-5 Clone, Hummel H5, etc to compete in a Pazmany and or Lowes-Baker-Falck efficiency contest if they ever were to be revived. A lot of records have been set in lower weight categories I am not sure if anyone wants to till that ground again, however if the BSFC of this little engine were stellar you never know what it could do in combo with a airframe tweaked for the competitions mentions.

    My best,
    Anthony
     
  13. Nov 10, 2018 #13

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    These are cool little engines in a small, light airframe. The client spent many months installing the EFI trying to do a very clean installation which I think he accomplished nicely. Yeah, people have fitted our EFI on almost every type of engine you can imagine and it's nice to work on special projects like this once in a while instead of the usual Lycomings. I like working with the Reno guys on the race engines especially because racing is in my blood since a long time ago but I like any aviation project which takes the owner up into the freedom above. Flying is just special, any way you enjoy it.

    BTW the name of the EFI pioneer on these engines is Les Smoot. Not sure if he's still flying or not? Anyone know him personally?
     
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  14. Dec 13, 2018 #14

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    We had to do a software tweak to get reliable hand propped starting which I thought might be a problem (and was). The new code doesn't require a full crank rev before firing the spark. We'll see how Jim finds this to work after more tries but so far, so good.
     
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  15. Dec 13, 2018 #15

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

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    If you can get that code into the CPI, you will almost certainly expand your customer base for that product line.
     
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  16. Dec 27, 2018 #16

    wanttobuild

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    Ross,

    I have one of these engines and three more that I have to go and pickup.

    A couple of questions come to mind. I am just getting started on this, so please bear with me.

    #1 Can I hand pop this engine with your fuel and spark kit?

    #2 I am gonna inject Methanol/water in front of the throttle body using Snow Performance Stage 2 MAF/MAP system. This system allows an accurate injection into the manifold which will hopefully quickly vaporize. The Snow system uses a map sensor signal and programable start and full points to control injection. My question is how will your computer react to this change in density of incoming air?

    Thank you in advance Ross.

    Ben
    H-Minus
     
  17. Dec 27, 2018 #17

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    I cannot comment until further testing is done on the hand propping. Why are you planning water/ methanol injection on this Engine?
     
  18. Dec 27, 2018 #18

    wanttobuild

    wanttobuild

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    I withdraw the questions. Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  19. Dec 27, 2018 #19

    pictsidhe

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    Because it's cool?
    MW50 is generally used as an octane booster. It also works as an internal coolant. Unless you are modifying the engine so it needs more octane/cooling, it won't do much.
     
  20. Jan 5, 2019 #20

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ============================================================================

    If you followed Les's threads on these 084 Engines, He recommended changing out the Rod Bolts which isn't hard to do, just pull the Oil Pan. They were rated at 20hp@3600rpm at 10,000ft. So 45hp@3600rpm at Sea Level. You still had to strip off a lot of stuff, Disable the Governor, etc., to reduce Weight for Airplane use. You have to do the same thing to these more Modern Singles and Big V Twins. Only Nobody back then had Youtube to post, How to Videos like they do today on these Modern Industrial 4 Strokes. I would bet these Newer Singles and even these Newer Big V Twins are lighter than those Old 4A084's. But they were Cheap Alternative Engines back then $400, today Saturn is asking $1850.00 for one. There is only a few places that carry their parts, and they have to be drying up. With these Newer Industrial 4 Strokes you have 25+ different Manufactures and the Singles have many HD Racing parts available. You don't have that Source for these 4A084 Engines. Both the Old 4A084 and these New Industrial 4 Strokes are all rated at 3600rpm.

    Saturn Surplus shows Engine as 265lbs. I'm pretty sure it's still over 115lbs stripped down for only 45hp.
    http://saturnsurplus.com/engines/10kengnew.htm

    084 = 84ci = 1376.5cc 45hp@3600rpm

    With just some minior Mods to these Engines below, they could probably make 45hp@3600rpm also. Use a K&N Air Filter, Bigger Carb/EFI, Tuned Header Exhaust. Most Governors on these are set for either 3850rpm or 4000rpm, depending on Brand Name used. So if using only 3600rpm Max you would be ok, but you Save a Weight if you remove it. You would still want to Disable the Low Oil Sensor, which you can do that Externally by just unplugging it. But for 20-30 minutes work you can remove both and also Inspect the Inside of the Engine for any garbage that shouldn't be there.

    Briggs 993cc Big V Twin comes Stock 40hp@3600rpm.

    Kohler 999cc Big V Twin comes Stock 40hp@3600rpm.

    The GX390(88mm x 64mm)+ Singles can be Big Bored to 100mm, with Stroker Cranks up to 86.5mm, so these Big V Twins can go a lot Bigger Bore & Stroke also. You can't do that on the 084's they have very thin Cylinder Walls and very Small Valves and Combustion Chambers, with No aftermarket parts available, like Cam's, Rods, Valve Train, Pistons, Aluminum Flywheels, etc.
     

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