"Constructive Criticism" and the Destruction of New Startups

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by aerochristian, Feb 2, 2016.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Feb 5, 2016 #81

    aerochristian

    aerochristian

    aerochristian

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    Walhalla, sc/ united states

    Yes, this could have been worded differently but then it wouldn't have inspired the passionate responses.


    Most are so quick to defend the Greats who need no defense. The Burt's, the Heintz's, and the Ross'. Their life and accomplishments so easily speak for themselves. I would love to see that same urgency and compassion to defend those that are still trying. The John's, the Alberto's, the Pete's.


    For you greats in hiding or in public, how you represent yourself is obviously entirely up to you. You can keep your head down and work 90 hour weeks like the plumber and soley focus on making it happen. You can stay hidden, as Ron offered, because really "Who needs it?".


    I remember meeting Martin Hollman for the first time. I approached him at an airshow out west and had him sign one of my books I had on me. Amazingly to me, he offered to come over and look at my plane I was showing. He wouldn't answer very many structural or design questions, but what he did do I will remember forever. He offered inspiration, through words. Yes words. The things that are so easily tossed around on here. Its was nothing but words but how he said them and the ones he choose kept that spark alive.


    Chris
     
    Lemans likes this.
  2. Feb 5, 2016 #82

    autoreply

    autoreply

    autoreply

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,732
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Location:
    Rotterdam, Netherlands
    So, who decides. "Greats"? You? The EAA? The amount of sponsorship you pay? How nicely you word things?

    In the mind of the EAA they're all hero's, which IMHO is a childish and inresponsible way to put it. Rutan gets significant praise for his achievements, but criticism (IMHO unjustified) on HBA for not bringing out "customer-relevant" designs. Both Hollmann and Heintz Sr. are responsible for downright dangerous stuff and both had people die in their designs where... well, let's not go there.

    You see the point? Rose-colored glasses and blind adoration is usually not the best metric to go by.

    Praise here is an individual choice. Those who deserve it in general get a lot of praise, but people with a great story, but no firm grasp on a feasible design (Fly Nano comes to mind) don't. Nice words, but fundamental flaws are called out. Even more so if safety is concerned. I have yet to see the first design appear on HBA and not fail because of fundamental issues that are pointed out here.




    On HBA I decide about praise. My praise. You decide about yours.

    Just like respect. If you have to ask for it, you don't deserve it, nor will you ever get it, for respect needs to be earned.

    You've earned mine by what you've done. But the people you mention (save Rutan and Alberto) probably never will;)
     
    Dan Thomas, Lemans, bmcj and 4 others like this.
  3. Feb 5, 2016 #83

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,705
    Likes Received:
    6,494
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Lemans likes this.
  4. Feb 5, 2016 #84

    AdrianS

    AdrianS

    AdrianS

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2014
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Australia
    Regarding experts and forums :
    I consider myself an expert (in a non-aviation field).
    Although I am a member on some relevant forums, but generaly take a low profile in my area of expertise, and don't mention who I work for.

    Why?
    I don't mention my employer, because I am not representing them in any way on the forums, and don't want advice or criticism I give attributed to them; I also don't want to be drawn into comparisons with competitors - I am online for fun, not work.

    The other thing is a bit more sensitive : being belittled by people with strong opinions but no facts or experience gets tiresome, as does having the same tedious argument with different people who can't be bothered to read the dozen previous threads where it was discussed at length!
    Having said that, I still do have some interesting discussions out there- I am just a bit picky as to when and where I contribute. There are some threads where the first few posts might as well say "abandon hope all who enter".


    IMPORTANT : These comments are about experts on forums in general, not my experience at HBA - I am no expert here, I come to learn, and have :)
     
    BoKu, Matt G., Lemans and 5 others like this.
  5. Feb 5, 2016 #85

    Eagle

    Eagle

    Eagle

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    Good ole Usa
    Aerochristian quote:
    Yet everytime a new startup or claim comes along, the "constructive criticism" goes through the roof and is sometimes left unchecked. You're forced to fight, run or fall in line and say yes sir. If you run, you get mocked for "taking your ball and going home." If you stay and fight, let's face it the numbers are not on your side and you will get destroyed.

    Eagle reply: Sad but true. The other day I heard a quote from a policeman on the news. It went something like this. "Be prepared to always do what you believe is right. Then be prepared to deal with the repercussions".

    When you post something, be prepared to defend it rather than to just discuss it.

    Another thread awhile back that was pretty good and I thought made some headway on the problem. HBA Demeanor https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/hangar-flying/23504-hba-demeanor.html



    The basic problem seems to me that the discussion of an idea deteriorates when it goes from trying to endorse or discredit the idea and drifts over to trying to discredit the individual who posted it.
     
    Lemans likes this.
  6. Feb 5, 2016 #86

    Lemans

    Lemans

    Lemans

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    586
    Likes Received:
    99
    Location:
    Riemst Belgium
    This thread has 261 likes. Read the title again.... does nobody find this weird?
     
  7. Feb 5, 2016 #87

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,963
    Likes Received:
    4,899
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    The likes aren't to approve the title of the thread, they are to indicate that we agree with all or part of a post in the thread, or enjoyed a joke that was made in a post.
     
  8. Feb 5, 2016 #88

    Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    That right there. The gaining of respect is deeply misunderstood in our society. Some think they automatically have it coming; we call that a sense of entitlement. Some think they can scare us into respecting them; we call that intimidation. Neither tactic gains one any respect; just disgust or fear.
     
    Topaz, Midniteoyl, bmcj and 1 other person like this.
  9. Feb 5, 2016 #89

    WonderousMountain

    WonderousMountain

    WonderousMountain

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,853
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Clatsop, Or
    Respect has to be earned, but everyone here is a guest excepting one;

    If you refuse or fail to maintain some dignity in your descriptions, then you're not welcome.

    Don't quote me "safety" or "business ethics"; those are petty excuses for transgressing, reason usually serves it's creator.

    LuPi
     
  10. Feb 5, 2016 #90

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,352
    Likes Received:
    3,281
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I want to design a 2 stroke rotax powered clipped wing Pitts on floats. What do you guys think? I'm gonna revolutionize the aircraft industry with this idea. It's gonna be rad!
     
    BJC and bmcj like this.
  11. Feb 5, 2016 #91

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,833
    Likes Received:
    5,465
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    Don't leave your snake in the front cockpit. Indy hates that.
     
  12. Feb 5, 2016 #92

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,705
    Likes Received:
    6,494
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Would that be a round wing or a flat wing Pitts?

    Two, four or eight ailerons?

    I'm fairly confident that you will use Steve Wolf's cowl.

    Amphibs would be more practicle, but straight floats definitely would look better on a biplane.

    Might want a little more HP for good vertical lines.

    First flight next weekend?


    BJC
     
    Little Scrapper likes this.
  13. Feb 5, 2016 #93

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,352
    Likes Received:
    3,281
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Ha ha. Don't be mean, I got this handled. Trust me, I'm a plumber.
     
    bmcj and BJC like this.
  14. Feb 6, 2016 #94

    MikePousson

    MikePousson

    MikePousson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    187
    Location:
    Ontario on the bay
    There might be a couple, but offhand, I can't think of a "great" that has never had a flyer lose his life due to design. Even Rutan has lost a few. On the ground, we're constricted between the lines. There's no lines up high and stuff happens. Go back to the days before glass cockpits and try to recreate an unwitnessed accident. The final report might say wing failure. We say bad design. Pilots last thought was maybe "I shouldn't have tried 9g."
     
  15. Feb 6, 2016 #95

    Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Well, the clipped-wing part has already been done.

    StitsSA-2A-SkyBabyReal.jpg

    It was a real airplane, too, but a Stits, not a Pitts.
     
    Midniteoyl, Little Scrapper and BJC like this.
  16. Feb 6, 2016 #96

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    947
    Location:
    Rochester, NY, USA
    I Like it! But it would be better if you made a Nakajima A6M2-N replica! Aerobatic, certainly! And maybe a HKS 700 engine option for the four stroke lovers.

    And VTOL, and carbon fiber, and suborbital!

    Um, what were we talking about? ;)
     
  17. Feb 6, 2016 #97

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,719
    Likes Received:
    3,319
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
  18. Feb 6, 2016 #98

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,266
    Likes Received:
    1,451
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    And people say there aren't any professional designers on the board....

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Little Scrapper and bmcj like this.
  19. Feb 6, 2016 #99

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    Armchair Mafia Conspirator HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,013
    Likes Received:
    2,009
    Location:
    BDU, BJC
    Thank you for the update on the price of tea in China.
     
    Matt G., BJC and BoKu like this.

Share This Page



arrow_white