"Constructive Criticism" and the Destruction of New Startups

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by aerochristian, Feb 2, 2016.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Feb 3, 2016 #61

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,862
    Likes Received:
    5,474
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    Huh? I actually was thinking about Synergy when I posted what you quoted, not you. Although your case applies, as well, now that you bring it to mind. You and I have discussed that adequately in private. I've already told you what I think, and given you the best advice I can about how to work with the forum in a way that will work for everyone, including you. I'm not going to vet your ideas for the forum so that you can continue trolling them 'with my informed consent.' I don't have the time for it, nor the requisite knowledge of engines and, at any rate, that's not how this forum works.

    I'll also direct your attention to HBA Code of Conduct #16, about posting the contents of private messages without the permission of all parties involved.

    Matter closed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    Lemans and Midniteoyl like this.
  2. Feb 3, 2016 #62

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,862
    Likes Received:
    5,474
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    We're drifting off topic here, but yes. The way to genuine self-esteem is to find yourself, to the extent possible in your age-range, and accomplish something(s) that is/are worthwhile to you. The false, manufactured, 'everyone-gets-a-trophy' modern version of "self-esteem" rarely lasts its first encounter with reality.
     
    Lemans, Kiwi303, gtae07 and 4 others like this.
  3. Feb 3, 2016 #63

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,973
    Likes Received:
    4,917
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Some days, it just doesn't pay to be Sidney Slipstick. :gig:
     
    Lemans and Midniteoyl like this.
  4. Feb 3, 2016 #64

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,862
    Likes Received:
    5,474
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    Don't you believe it. That guy is simply rolling in hot dates. ;)
     
    SVSUSteve, cheapracer and bmcj like this.
  5. Feb 3, 2016 #65

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    684
    Location:
    Uncasville, CT
    I'm not sure I equate 'maybe we should try not to be automatically negative' to 'everyone gets a trophy for their pet rock'

    Seems the OP is just sensing a lack of forward, constructive energy, and would like to see more doing and less argument. Whether that goal is shared by anyone, or possible, is maybe something to be determined.

    In general, if the focus of critique is on trying to identify and solve the underlying wants/needs that lead to a proposed design, and not getting bogged down in the specifics of whether a current idea, as presented, is viable; that tends to be constructive. I've designed enough crap that has gone through enough iterations to know that, until you're the customer, its never about what's in front of you; it's what lies behind. Because things are always going to change. Testing will always yield the truth. I can tell you your idea is crap but if you don't come to the table wanting my opinion on it and willing to abide by that opinion, you're likely to just try anyway. So why waste time with some of it? Other than the obvious cases where someone's gung-ho to try and fly a porta-john with bedsheet wings where a word of 'you are crazy and are going to die' is not unwarranted.

    Anyway, those constructive discussions do happen, and do happen here, and plenty of good feedback has been given to myself and others. But I can sense that there's cases where discussions turned into 'this won't work because X' where maybe a more nuanced approach could have saved dozens of posts of argument and potentially either caused the discussions to end early or go into productive discourse.

    But that's just my approach and I'm not by any means an expert on much of this, if any of it.
     
    Lemans and aerochristian like this.
  6. Feb 3, 2016 #66

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,734
    Likes Received:
    6,516
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    But Stephen Covey is an expert on effective communications and in resolving differences. Here is what he advocates:

    image.png

    It works.


    BJC
     
  7. Feb 3, 2016 #67

    autoreply

    autoreply

    autoreply

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,732
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Location:
    Rotterdam, Netherlands
    I've personally introduced a few (chief)engineers of established (GA) manufacturers and know for a fact that at least 2 of those participate under a pseudonym while another few regularly talk about topics that are "hot" and are thus reading. Quite a few of the "intimate" details come from them. Needless to say, if I give names and employers I'll never get told anything again...

    Quite a few, including senior staff from virtually all the big American GA manufacturers. (It surfaces every now and then as a mod)


    Another biggie is that your tools and advice often ends up being misused (unintentional). I've seen some people use some tools I gave them to design outright dangerous parts due to changing the tools and getting the wrong results. The only exception is where one is using a tool I made and intentionally ignoring me. His strut attachment will fail at 85-90% of limit load. Easy to imagine that makes one a bit hesitant to give out precise public advise and/or tools.
     
    Lemans likes this.
  8. Feb 3, 2016 #68

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,862
    Likes Received:
    5,474
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    Of course. Do we get overly harsh sometimes, and dog-pile? I would say we do. Sometimes. Hopefully all of us will, when the time comes, take a moment and a deep breath, and work towards a truly constructive conversation.

    But just as we do get overly harsh sometimes, we equally get some people that make any other approach virtually impossible. There are few people with whom it is less possible to have a constructive conversation than someone who has fallen in love with their "revolutionary" idea.
     
  9. Feb 3, 2016 #69

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The charm and babe-magnitude of aircraft designers is only second to that of Space System Engineers. :)

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Lemans, BJC, SVSUSteve and 2 others like this.
  10. Feb 3, 2016 #70

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    947
    Location:
    Rochester, NY, USA
    There are a couple of different cases I myself have participated..... and on occasion have been unduly harsh upon reflection.

    If anyone wants an apology from me, just point out where I failed to be polite and you will get one.... or an explanation why I don't want to.

    I'd rather be correct than win an argument. Winning an argument won't improve my spin recovery. Being corrected might.

    Some cases, like with Synergy, I've watched but not participated. I either have no useful opinion or prefer not to second guess folk obviously better informed than me. ( I'd love to see it fly )

    Other cases, such as a (hypothetical) fellow that wants to build a four surface craft with biplane canard, I have and will speak up with hopefully useful criticism.

    And there are a few..... such as a nice fellow in a distant land that wanted to build a grass trimmer powered ultralight. ... but wanted to fly off a suburban street, that I felt obligated to try and convince to follow a path less likely to result in prison or mass casualties. And admitted that I fully understood his desire, & only luck or better advice kept me from getting equally in trouble.

    ( my buds and I used to do guerrilla parasailing behind vans on empty streets. Or beaches. Or........ albeit with a steerable Paracommander sky diving chute and a mil spec line release so we could cheaply practice spot landings. I'm not sure about statute of limitations rules on some of our misadventures so forgive me for skipping details )
     
    Lemans likes this.
  11. Feb 4, 2016 #71

    MikePousson

    MikePousson

    MikePousson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    187
    Location:
    Ontario on the bay
    The majority here are just flyers that might have skills to build from plans or a kit. I can build a wooden plane with the best. I can figure out a sheet metal kit if it had all the parts formed and pre drilled. I can't weld, so tube type planes or out unless the kit comes pre welded (pricy). I am not a designer. CG, WB, wing load, etc,etc are all foreign to me. So, something not pleasing to my eye don't make it un-air worthy. Yet as flyers, a lot of folks criticize something they know nothing about.
    I used to build houses. Done a few in my life and I know what works and what don't work in structure strength. I belong to a couple woodworking groups, and it still amazes me when there is a conversation about a home building problem and there are great ideas thrown out there by professional home builders, and then a wood turner tosses in "that won't work."
    I guess it's just human nature, especially since we are all unfaced.
    I came here to use the group as a tool to educate me on things I don't know.
     
    Lemans, Battler Britton and Topaz like this.
  12. Feb 4, 2016 #72

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,159
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Location:
    US
    I will say that people don't behave the same online as they do in person (and this is a very polite forum, compared to many). If someone posted a drawing of their new design here and it had a very tiny rudder or small tail volume, a lot of people would get directly to the point and note that. If we saw the same plane at a fly-in, with the proud owner in front, we'd probably be a lot more oblique with our questions. "Interesting design. How well does she recover from spins? How's the dynamic and static stability-- it looks a little "sporty? What's the max crosswind component you've had on landing, and how much do you think she'll handle?" Few of us would come right out directly and say the design looks faulty. But that's what we'd be thinking. Without all the rich contextual cues of being face to face (verbal tone, facial expressions, body language, etc), in written form sometimes it's just better to get right to the point. But this can certainly come across as rude or brusque. It's the nature of the medium.
     
  13. Feb 4, 2016 #73

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    Armchair Mafia Conspirator HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,017
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    BDU, BJC
    No relation, I assume?

    Indeed the finished products are there for all to see and judge. But they undergo months--and more often years--of criticism from trusted colleagues (and ultimately, clients, who foot the bill) before they are built. :)

    1.jpg
     
    Lemans likes this.
  14. Feb 4, 2016 #74

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,734
    Likes Received:
    6,516
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    83rd cousin, as best I can tell.

    Nice.

    And that is the real issue: trust. Designers, of anything, listen to critiques from those that they trust. There are many trustworthy people participating on HBA, but it can be very difficult for newer participants to recognize who they are and distinguish their crticism from that of hackers. The challenge, as the young boy said, is to find the pony amidst all the horse s&@t.


    BJC
     
    Lemans and mcrae0104 like this.
  15. Feb 4, 2016 #75

    12notes

    12notes

    12notes

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    525
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I just scrolled past this quickly and thought it said:

    Suck first
    understand
    then
    be understood

    Which is also good advice, when you think about it.
     
    Lemans and SVSUSteve like this.
  16. Feb 4, 2016 #76

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    As far as not being the same online as in person, I am much more likely to tell somewhere where they can go in person than online. For some reason I am more polite and forgiving online. Dunno why, just is :)
     
    Lemans and clanon like this.
  17. Feb 4, 2016 #77

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,973
    Likes Received:
    4,917
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Deniability ;)
     
    Lemans and Midniteoyl like this.
  18. Feb 4, 2016 #78

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,352
    Likes Received:
    3,281
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Oh boy. I never reply to threads like this but when you made this quote I felt a little compelled I guess.

    Here's the thing, it's the internet. I started my plumbing business from literally nothing, I was flat broke. It was started the same year the economy started to collapse, it was the biggest challenge I faced in my life second only to a death in my family. I never once visited a plumbing forum, a business forum, a marketing forum or any other forum. I guess I was too busy making it happen. Today the business is considered to be the number one plumbing company in my demographic. My story is no different than than many people who are busy trying to "lead". We don't have time for that. So I'd be careful going down that road of reasoning and making assumptions like you did, the so called "experts" are busy working 90 hours a week, and they could be answering those questions on this forum and you wouldn't even know it. The simple fact of the matter is that in life we are surrounded by negativity and criticism. I experienced this pretty much daily when I built my business. I Ignored it. I decided to be the example instead of being the complainer. Society has been like this since the earth cooled. Fortunately, in life there's also a ton of awesome people and I would say they are in the majority here on this forum.

    With that said, there' a ton of experts on here and a ton of great people who are chatting on this forum this very second. I'll give you an example......

    Go visit the thread I started on "Cassutt airplanes". Read all the posts. That thread was, and still is, great....in every way possible. That one thread has experts on it, that is a fact. People with experience chimed in and answered every single question I asked. I was overwhelmed by the generosity and the time others spent for me and I learned a great deal about the Cassutt. But I was humble, I asked questions and just listened. I suggest you read through the thread and read the countless stories about the history of the Cassutt. Awesome people are everywhere here, spend time talking with those people and ignore the rest.

    From that single thread I was able to link up with a couple guys who are steeped in Cassutt knowledge, and we email each other periodically now. You just need to seek those people out. That single thread, in my opinion, will help people on the internet for many years to come because everything that was discussed was great. Right now, any person who goes on Google and looks up "Cassutt" with find this on the front page of google and because so may great stories and opinions exist on that thread the guy searching on Google for Cassutt information will be darn happy he found it.

    So be that guy, be the positive guy, be the listener, and if you see a thread go south be the guy who helps resurrect it in a positive way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
  19. Feb 5, 2016 #79

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    5,485
    Likes Received:
    3,842
    Location:
    Australian
    MO doesn't know what your talking about.
     
    Lemans, bmcj and BJC like this.
  20. Feb 5, 2016 #80

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    58284552.jpg
     
    Lemans, SVSUSteve, cheapracer and 3 others like this.

Share This Page



arrow_white