Concorde 25XC Battery

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Magisterol

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Anyone had any problems with Concorde 25XC? I bought it last year and now I cannot start the engine without a charger booster. I can see it turns slower than normal and after 3 cranks it quits. If I hook up the charger booster, it starts right away. I had an Odyssey PC 680 that was installed in Feb 2009 that lasted till September 2020. Mind you the last 4-5 years not much flying. People was calling it a toy battery. Well, I bought this one and looks like it is done. I looked at the reviews and they are all 4-5 years and better service life. Any suggestions? Thx.
 

tspear

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That is a lead acid battery. If you ever fully discharge it, it will likely never recover.
Each additional full discharge makes it weaker; and full power charge from the alternator when you discharge it significantly is also bad for this style of battery.
You can try a desalinating cycle with a battery tender designed for it, and you may recover some use.
Otherwise, plan on getting a new battery with the correct battery tender and you should get many years out of it.

I do not recall which Concord battery I had, but it was a good five years old when I bout the SR20 and I ran it for two more years until I sold the plane. Once a month, we had it on a special battery tender for a night.

Tim
 

rv7charlie

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All the above, but much more info is needed on why you're having the problem.

I doubt brand quality is an issue with either one, but you might have a bad battery.

What's your voltage *on the battery terminals* (not the connectors; the actual terminals) while cranking? If it's higher than about 10.5V, you probably have a wiring problem somewhere in the system (could be supply side or ground side; almost everyone neglects the ground path).

If it's dropping down below about 8.5V, you probably have a battery issue, but it could be caused by something else, like your engine's charging system.

What's your voltage *on the battery terminals* while the engine is running (not your plane's voltmeter; check it with a known good meter). Do the check after freshly charging the battery prior to engine start. If it's between 14V & ~14.8V, engine running, the charging system is probably good. If it's below ~13.7V, the charging system is almost certainly having 'issues'. If it's less than ~13V, it's not doing any charging at all. (All charging checks assume you've got a regular automotive style alternator; the little 'dynamo' style permanent magnet alternators won't output full voltage until rpm comes up quite a bit.)

I don't spend the bucks on Odyssey batteries (or Concords), but their tech info is first rate, and everything in it will be applicable to a Concord, if it's a sealed lead acid like the Odyssey.
 

Magisterol

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The engine was starting ok last weekend (7-8 August), but this weekend I wanted to go flying and it felt like the engine was turning slower when cranking. It did not start on the 2nd try either and the same on the third when the engine stoped. I put the charger on and it was showing 78%. I charged it and tried again. It did not start from the 1st run so I put the booster on and it started and you can see was a faster turn with the booster on. So I shut down the engine and removed the booster. Put the cowlings back on and tried again but with no luck. The Engine is turning slower without the booster charger on. Do know what to say. Don’t understand why all of a sudden it turns slower Even after a fresh recharge showing 100%...
 

Kyle Boatright

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Why not put another Odyssey back in it? I've had better experience with those than the Concordes. Besides, they are lighter and cost less.
 

Magisterol

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Why not put another Odyssey back in it? I've had better experience with those than the Concordes. Besides, they are lighter and cost less.
I was thinking about that too. I was looking at the cranking power so 330A vs 170A looks better and also I am in Canada so winters are brisk to say the least. Mind you I am near Toronto so a bit warmer, but still the extra amps should help. I will test the battery to see if there is a discharge somewhere and do an alternator diode test. I will swap the battery with someone from field to see how it works. The battery is still under warranty so they should reimburse partially.
 

Magisterol

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See post #3.
What is the difference between “battery terminals” and the “connectors”? Also what do you mean by “What's your voltage *on the battery terminals* while the engine is running (not your plane's voltmeter; check it with a known good meter). Do the check after freshly charging the battery prior to engine start.” It is confusing for me. Check it both times?
 

TFF

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He is asking to check static voltage of battery before starting and when engine is running. It is nice to be able to read it when cranking too. You are looking for the battery to spring back or not.
 

Magisterol

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He is asking to check static voltage of battery before starting and when engine is running. It is nice to be able to read it when cranking too. You are looking for the battery to spring back or not.
Ok. I understand now. Thx. I will do that. I don’t think I will be able to check it while cranking because my amp meter only goes to 10A but I could check the voltage.
 

TFF

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No checking amps with the test meter. There is a correlation to amp loss and voltage. It’s a good enough indicator.
 

Magisterol

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No checking amps with the test meter. There is a correlation to amp loss and voltage. It’s a good enough indicator.
I realized what said after I posted it. With a fully charged battery, I was supposed to check the voltage before, during and after start. It is clear now.
 

rv7charlie

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What is the difference between “battery terminals” and the “connectors”? Also what do you mean by “What's your voltage *on the battery terminals* while the engine is running (not your plane's voltmeter; check it with a known good meter). Do the check after freshly charging the battery prior to engine start.” It is confusing for me. Check it both times?
Do not use the amps range of your meter for any of these tests; all you could do is blow its internal fuse, or destroy the meter. Read through post #3 again; all tests are voltage measurements.

The battery terminals are the 'posts' that are manufactured into the battery. The connectors are the things on the ends of your wires that connect to the 'posts'. A/c batteries don't really have 'posts' like car batteries, so coming up with a descriptive term is kinda hard. ;-)

The reason for being specific on where to measure is that you might have high resistance somewhere in the starting circuit, and one potential place is between the battery terminals (posts) and the connectors that are on the end of your wires (could be either positive, ground, or both).

To do the checks, the battery should be fully charged *before* starting the checks (charge it up through a complete charge cycle using a 'smart' charger, that tells you when it's finished charging the battery). This is to remove the possibility of testing with a partially discharged battery, which would affect the checks.

Do the 1st test with mags *OFF*. Get a helper to hold the meter leads on the battery *Posts*. You should see between 12.6 & 12.8 volts, with a healthy, fully charged battery. With the helper monitoring battery voltage *on the posts*, with mags *OFF* and mixture at idle cutoff, hit the starter for a couple of seconds, long enough for the voltmeter reading to stabilize with the battery under load from the starter. Voltage should drop to between 9.5 & 10.5 volts during cranking. If it drops below about 8.5-9.0V, the battery is probably bad, or you have a serious problem with the starter itself (highly unlikely, since the plane starts fine with the booster). If the voltage stays up above ~10.5-11V during cranking, then you have a high resistance somewhere in the starting circuit.

Next, start////just saw your reply; get back to us when you've done the checks.

Good luck!
 

Magisterol

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Thanks for the info. This weekend i am off and I will be at the field. Will post after.
 

rv7charlie

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The engine was starting ok last weekend (7-8 August), but this weekend I wanted to go flying and it felt like the engine was turning slower when cranking. It did not start on the 2nd try either and the same on the third when the engine stoped. I put the charger on and it was showing 78%. I charged it and tried again. It did not start from the 1st run so I put the booster on and it started and you can see was a faster turn with the booster on. So I shut down the engine and removed the booster. Put the cowlings back on and tried again but with no luck. The Engine is turning slower without the booster charger on. Do know what to say. Don’t understand why all of a sudden it turns slower Even after a fresh recharge showing 100%...
Just re-read this; if we aren't losing something in translation, I'll bet that you'll find this (from my previous post):
If the voltage stays up above ~10.5-11V during cranking, then you have a high resistance somewhere in the starting circuit.
 

tallank

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The engine was starting ok last weekend (7-8 August), but this weekend I wanted to go flying and it felt like the engine was turning slower when cranking. It did not start on the 2nd try either and the same on the third when the engine stoped. I put the charger on and it was showing 78%. I charged it and tried again. It did not start from the 1st run so I put the booster on and it started and you can see was a faster turn with the booster on. So I shut down the engine and removed the booster. Put the cowlings back on and tried again but with no luck. The Engine is turning slower without the booster charger on. Do know what to say. Don’t understand why all of a sudden it turns slower Even after a fresh recharge showing 100%...
One reason for this behavior is that the battery is NFG. It will look like it is charged up because the voltage is high enough but there is no energy behind it. This is a common failure mode for the AGM type batteries if they are left in a discharge state for any length of time.
 

Magisterol

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Just re-read this; if we aren't losing something in translation, I'll bet that you'll find this (from my previous post):
If the voltage stays up above ~10.5-11V during cranking, then you have a high resistance somewhere in the starting circuit.
I will have to measure that at the battery posts. According to the amp in the airplane, it stays up for the few attempts, but after the second, it dives. But I will do it with the meter, not the V/A in the airplane. Also, the battery is not discharging. I fly the airplane every week.
 

tspear

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One reason for this behavior is that the battery is NFG. It will look like it is charged up because the voltage is high enough but there is no energy behind it. This is a common failure mode for the AGM type batteries if they are left in a discharge state for any length of time.
Ok, I know this, and posted it in the first reply. However I never did understand it. Think you can explain it in terms a five year old would understand?

Tim
 
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