Composite Mobile Mini Factory - KITSTER

Discussion in 'Workshop Tips and Secrets / Tools' started by anvegger, Dec 3, 2016.

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  1. Dec 4, 2016 #41

    TFF

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    One problem is you are going to have to focus on one airplane that needs the help. Being willing to set up 10-20-30 different designs is being wishful. For it to work it has to be integrated to the design. You dont have the life span to make 10 integrated designs. A drill press and some drawers are not going to cut it. It cant be an experimenters shed; the person who will pay for this wants to speed up his production. Tooling has to fill the holes from factory and what you have at home.
     
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  2. Dec 4, 2016 #42

    D Hillberg

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    County restrictions on 'shed' dimensions and permitting. In this county you are limited to 100 sqft. a trailer is also limited on parking areas and powered 'sheds' a no no... Some places the cost is too high to justify a home shed...or a garage sized filler that gets the wife angry at the sticky mess tracked into her 'nest area'.
     
  3. Dec 4, 2016 #43

    anvegger

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    Dana - many thanks for your input. Please allow me tune your vision a bit. The KIT manufacturer (Lancair, etc) at present time designs the KIT. All the programs (fast build, builder assistance, two weeks wonder etc...) - are just supportive programs to sell that KIT. The current process of KIT's lifecycle at most really resides at the KIT Manufacturer location and consists of : 1. Design of an airplane; 2. Manufacture (produce or purchase) the KIT (variety of the different parts) ; 3. Store these manufactured parts within the inventory abilities; 4. Sell the inventory. 5. Support the builder (or "the end-user" for that sake) . This is basic workflow of the most known manufacturers. KITSTER helps the KIT producer with shifting a bit that workflow towards the end-user. In the "well known" workflow that is described earlier the builder's participation starts after step4. In KITSTER case scenario builder's involvement is shifted to number 2 - Manufacture the KIT (parts) and parts inventory is re-distributed from the Manufacturer's warehouse to the final end-user's home location. Instead of end-user is flying 2000 miles to the KIT's producer location to pick up a partially built airframe the factory is visiting the end-user, produces the set of parts, helps the end-user assemble that, stores those parts at the end-user's location and moves to a different end-user.
     
  4. Dec 4, 2016 #44

    cheapracer

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    It HAS to change.

    Short attention and short thrill syndrome is very real and growing as is disposable income, and by that i mean expendable cash for hobbies, not ficticious statistics that say everyone has more money now than 30 years ago - sure they do, but it's all tied up in the latest ice dispensing fridge, through to the teenage daughters latest i'Whatever.

    To that end on this topic, a better bet would be to have visiting consultants who visit say twice a week and spend an hour or 2 with you to teach and initiate parts of the build, maybe dropping of various required loaner tools. You could say buy blocks of time along with stages of the kit for that purpose.


    Yup.
     
  5. Dec 4, 2016 #45

    anvegger

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    Practically the KIT manufacturer (producer) has to have a Prototype with set of PLUGS and MOLDS. Based on that set of PLUGS and MOLDS the KIT producer orders the set of frame' components. In case of All Metal airframe those components could be laser crafted at the local metal shop in according to designer's spec and stored at the KIT producer's location for further sales/distribution. The KIT producer already spent a few hundreds of thousands (up to a few mill dollars) for R&D and spending more to fulfill the inventory. All of those expenses are not necessarily recoverable. For variety of reasons.

    KITSTER is a different method. R&D could be done at the local SolidWorks student group as a school project (Hypothetically) . PLUGS could be cut using CNC router at the arts and crafts shop from those SolidWorks files. The real assets - tangible assets start from there. And that is a part of the manufacturer's business. The only inventory that KIT producer might handle is the PLUG collection. The set of molds that are produced from those plugs are wrapped into the raw materials and shipped to the consumer as a KITSTER distribution. MOLDS and Containers are property of a KIT's producer but not stored at the factory. Instead they all travel around the local area (25 metro area in the US) from one end-user to another helping with building the airframes (in our case) MOLDs could be replaced time to time with new version is being improved or enhanced. But the KITSTER itself remains on their wheels as a Mobile Mini Factory
     
  6. Dec 4, 2016 #46

    anvegger

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    Precisely. The KITSTER is the integrated part of each design. The concept is equally suitable to any Composite Construction Mini Factory. Regardless of the size or the complexity. The part which belongs to that KIT's producer could be and must be correlated or integrated into the design. Same for any Composite Construction. If the vendor such as Lancair orders 100 pre-fabricated frames from the Philippines that is also integrated into the design. If not - all the parts could be thrown away and the material/money/labor investment is garbaged. Same for the KITSTER : the set of PLUGS is the property of the Manufacturer. The set of MOLDS is becoming a distributed property of the builder's community Sort of an "Open Source" that could be tested, tuned, shared and improved constantly at the field side of the production.
     
  7. Dec 4, 2016 #47

    Dana

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    I've taught CAD and intro engineering at the college level. Believe me, except for the occasional exceptional student, you're not going to get anything of value from them. Anyone with the expertise to manage a bunch of students into producing anything useful coud do it himself far faster.

    I doubt many "arts and crafts shops" have a CNC router big enough.

    You might-- just might-- be able to "rent" the finished molds to kit buyers. In this case the idea of keeping them in a container set up as a mobile workshop with heat, light, ventilation, etc., might be practical. Certainly the molds would be far less likely to be damaged than if they were shipped around loose and uncrated in the builder's shop.

    I gather the main thrust here is to save on labor (finished part layup) at the kit manufacturer's facility. But it's going to be expensive for the kit builder. I suspect most builders with that kind of cash will prefer to travel to the factory for a couple of weeks and do it there, with not only support but the motivation to finish within the scheduled couple of weeks.

    Dana
     
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  8. Dec 4, 2016 #48

    Matt G.

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    Where is the electricity to power these going to come from? This won't be something you can simply plug into an exterior outlet, and there are many houses that do not even have a 230V outlet in the garage.

    Your target market seems to be people that want to build an airplane, but don't have the workspace or tools. At least in my area, most people that live in the city and not out in the country would not have enough room anywhere in their driveway or yard to set up several shipping-container sized items (or even one), and most of them also have HOAs that would not allow this sort of thing anyway. How will you address these issues? When I was looking for a house, it took me a long time to find one with a decent size workspace, yard, and no oppressive HOA in my price range.
     
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  9. Dec 4, 2016 #49

    anvegger

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    Dana, your "exceptional student" is the generation I am talking about. KITSTER is his device to distribute your design around. Or any smart designer's shop of a kind. CNC router "big enough" is the matter of the design progression. Look at the Raptor-Aircraft shop. They have 40' stage 3-x CNC. May be another 4 months for them to use that CNC router or about two dozens of PLUGS and the rest.... caput : would be sitting there doing nothing unless some other project such as X-Project would be using that capability as well.
     
  10. Dec 4, 2016 #50

    anvegger

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    Composite Mobile Mini Factory meant to be completely mobile. Similar to RV. If needed - utilize generator, when no need for that : use AC/DC conversion from the regular outlet. And charge your battery using the solar power. Etc. That is XXI century factory with power saving / reusable energy source. All the components are extremely safe and efficient. That is not a "powered" shed of any kind It is a commercial mobile rental property. Same for construction workers when they coming to the "location" for a project. It is a piece of an infrastructure. It could reside quietly at the Regional Airport next to the dumpster and grow up with the size and the stage of the project progresses. At the end - the airplane has to be parked somewhere right? Why won't you think of your parking from the day one of your project and secure your space by installing one little "central" Unit of your future shop? Then rent out one container with the MOLD for your empennage, ship it back in exchange of a spar MOLD inside of a Container KITSTER-II then ship it back and receive two molds of the Fuselage assembly... and so on so forth. You only need 8 x 20 local land with option to expand when needed up to the size of your airplane-assembled.

    [video=youtube;2gpQw1u81iQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gpQw1u81iQ[/video]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2019
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  11. Dec 4, 2016 #51

    TFF

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    Engineering students are not the group you want to tap. Very few are hands on; most just know engineering will be a good job. The engineering technology students are the hands on types. When renting out the setup, are you going to require the renter to have any schooling as to not mess stuff up? Sending molds around will have a lot of dreamers getting their hands on things that the Darwin effect has kept safely away from them. Molded or moldless is really advanced homebuilding; easy once the labor pattern is understood, but it is time consuming and hard to get big layups to good standards. I dont know if I would like to supply someone who misses the setup or QA of the part. If the big parts were already molded and came in the box; then assembly of good parts may be better for success. The group of people who will mold their own airplane is very very small.
     
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  12. Dec 4, 2016 #52

    anvegger

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    I think that this one is fairly easy to remediate. All the rental's agreements have liability section. The renter either accepts liability coverage that comes with the tool, or denies it and provides his own coverage. One way or another for the homebuilder's investment of 130K (Complete) */ See Raptor-Aircraft.com /* into the upcoming project it makes sense to start think of all the liability issues way in advance , including self-education on all the aspects of the insurance coverages matrix.
     
  13. Dec 4, 2016 #53

    anvegger

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    Brilliant !!! Bravo TFF! you are absolutely correct. But I have a big hope for those who is coming in 5... 10 years . Look at the Ary Glantz video that I supplied a few posts back. He is ~ 30 y.o. now. He started his project solely in 2010 - 6 years ago. How old he was back then? Right : 24 y.o. Just for the time of being out of undergrad school. In 4-5 years from now he would be a true guru. And that is th e perfect example of how the knowledge is becoming the power.
    The "old school" folks are scared to move with such an advanced technology. I am scared too. That fear truly develops procrastination that we were talking about yesterday. The KITSTER is a toy for those of us who can learn everything from the ground up being 60++ years old. And is definitely the toy for Ary Glantz' generation who would take the Mr. Elbert Rutan's design and plans , convert that into SolidWorks (CATIA at this case) and move forward with new ideas and techniques
     
  14. Dec 4, 2016 #54

    Topaz

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    Anvegger, it seems like you've got this fleshed out in some detail. Is it your intention to move forward with this yourself and start this venture?
     
  15. Dec 4, 2016 #55

    anvegger

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    Dear Topaz, I am sort of moving forward with that idea but I would entertain any kind of participation. My company - sportster.aero working with variety of design shops building the concept and pilot version of that KITSTER package. What I want to ask - if anyone from the KIT Manufacturers' or professional builders would be kind to include sort of Composite KIT design into this integration . I am willing even to buy rights from the design shop may May be UAV or drone KIT factory to produce and distribute the integrated KITSTER package.
     
  16. Dec 4, 2016 #56

    Little Scrapper

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    "Old school" being scared is pretty unfounded. Sure, there's an element of that I suppose but we enjoy the old way of doing things. Design wise old school airplanes perform well and are still efficient. Tailwind vs Longez kinda thing.

    Good luck with your idea though, we need people like you to keep pushing the industry forward.
     
  17. Dec 4, 2016 #57

    autoreply

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    I think you're overestimating the problem and underestimating the practical issues.

    As noted; a closed workshop and electric heating are fine for composites. Can't heat it? Metal will be way worse since you're handing metal with your hands. No fun if it's freezing.

    As for a mobile workshop; it often has to follow the same regulations as a shed/workshop. Otherwise a 2nd hand 40' shipping container would also work, with all the infrastructure there already.
     
  18. Dec 4, 2016 #58

    anvegger

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    Many thanks dear autoreply for your valuable input. Let me share with you my estimating (over and under) . let me start with overestimating the problem. The first composite airframe for General Aviation was designed and produced by a dentist from Texas Dr Leo Windecker and the airplane was a 4-seater Eagle AC-7 Eagle 1x That happened more than 50 years ago. We are talking about the length and quantity of that production at the moment. Currently only (conservatively estimated) 10% of the GA fleet is Composite construction. However for 50 years since the first FAA certified plane there must be better results, don't you think? Then the question comes : Why is that developing so slowly ? What is the root cause of that?

    [video=youtube;zpYnpFfnbdY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpYnpFfnbdY[/video]
     
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  19. Dec 4, 2016 #59

    anvegger

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    The second question that comes to my mind - Why many interesting composite projects disappearing? In fact I personally know only Two composite brands of KIT manufacturer that offer the composite KIT airframe at the moment: (Not true - I know three of them) Lancair, Velocity and Europa. And variations of VaryEZ (Cozy LongEZ ERacer etc) could be collected all together as products of AircraftSpruce.com since the warehouse makes and sells real packages to the public. yes you are correct all the end user needs - is a heated space. Something like that

    View attachment 56667
     
  20. Dec 4, 2016 #60

    anvegger

    anvegger

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    Some smart end users are making the shop way in advance just to get the real deal

    View attachment 56668

    But that ends up very soon and they packing the pieces and drive them back to the Manufacturer' site

    FP04122010A000F0.jpg
     

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