CNC Router, Plasma, 3D Printer, combo unit.

Discussion in 'Workshop Tips and Secrets / Tools' started by Armilite, Sep 18, 2018.

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  1. Sep 18, 2018 #1

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Looking at this:[TABLE="class: device-width, align: center"]

    [h=1]NEW 3D 6090(24X36") CNC Router Engraver Cutter Machine ON SALE FREESHIP [/h]

    [TD="class: secondary-headline"][h=1]Price: $2,199.00[/h][/TD]
    [/TABLE]
    [TABLE="class: device-width, align: center"]

    [TD="class: single-product-block"][TABLE="class: single-product-table, align: left"]

    [TD="class: single-product-image, width: 200, bgcolor: #ffffff, align: center"][​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="class: single-product-pad"] [/TD]
    [/TABLE]
    [/TD]
    [/TABLE]

    I also see this Add-on a 3D Printer Attachment, and I have also seen Plasma Cutter, Laser, Vynil & Gasket Cutter options on some other machines. I have a Cut 50 PRO Hand-Held Plasma Cutter that Cuts up to at least 1/2", I think I once cut a little thicker than that. I see someone also selling a Torch Conversion.

    Since you can Cut 6061 up to 2" on a Table Saw with the right Saw Blade, you could profile some parts to get it close and then maybe finish with the Router, predill Bolt Holes.

    Does anybody use a Combo CNC Unit? I don't work much with Wood these days. I would probably use the Router for Cutting Delrin/Nylon, and 6061.
     

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  2. Sep 18, 2018 #2

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    It would be interesting to see if you could 3D Print a Hallow Ultralight Wing in Sections that either Glue, Screw, or Rivet together with an Aluminium or Carbon Fiber Tube Spars. Never done any 3D Printing, but it's my understanding from the Supplier, the Print Size can be the Machine Size as long as the hot bed is large enough. The Default Hot Bed is 12" x 12", but this Router is 24" x 36". So it's Scaleable by Machine Size. Something like that Russian X15, maybe Scaled Up a little, done in Carbon Fiber would be awesome.

    The first photo is a 3D Printed UAV Wing. I like the 3rd Designed Black Wing, account you could install a Fuel Tank in it.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  3. Sep 20, 2018 #3

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

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    The 3d print material is not very strong, routing shapes out of flat ( CF, Wood, Alum.) and assembling (glue, rivets,?) makes more sense. Your 3d Cad skills need to be top notch for anything complex. If it is your own design....stress analysis plays a role, if you are building a proven design, then you will need to Cad model it in order to tell the machine what to do. Of the pictures you show, only one is a simple design, as regards a uniform shape and size.
     
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  4. Sep 21, 2018 #4

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    =================================================================

    The first photo is a 3D Printed UAV Wing that is Flying. The 3D Printed Kayak is a Working Boat. The Black 3D Printed Wing is a Working RC Wing. You can Scale up any 3D CAD Model, but Yes, it needs to be Tested. We take Aluminium Tubing and cover it with Cloth. A Wing like that Black one Scaled up with the Same Aluminium Spars used would be Stronger than the Clothe Wing. Plastic doesn't Rust, Corroad, or Priece easy. I didn't say it would be easy or Simple to Design the Parts. There is over 20+ different 3D Printing materials with New Materials coming out often. My Point was, you can Buy a Cheap Large Scale 3D Router Table and Add a 3D Printer Head to it to make larger Parts. There is Free 3D Modeling Software out there to Design anything you can dream up.

    The Spar Tubes would go throuh the (2) Holes and each Section could have the Compression Strut Tubes Designed into each Section.

    Think of Belite's Ultralight Wing with Carbon Spars that are Epoxy Glued. Each 3D Printed Section would slide on the Tubes and Glued in place.

    Average Ultrlight Tube Wing Size. A 4' x 6' Router Table would cover most Wings.
     

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  5. Sep 22, 2018 #5

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

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    Perhaps a 3D printed honey comb foam would work for a low strength core. Complex shapes not hot wired. C.F. Covered
    It would have to be low weight. I do not think I have seen that yet though. Yes lots out there just waiting to be used.
     
  6. Sep 22, 2018 #6

    lr27

    lr27

    lr27

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    Seems like you could do ribs or bulkheads as "cores", with carbon tow or wood veneer added after. Not sure if it's better than routing ribs out of foam and doing the same, though.

    I don't know if it requires different equipment to print, but I've heard of 3D printed sintered metals. They have to be heated up afterwards, though.
     
  7. Sep 22, 2018 #7

    proppastie

    proppastie

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    At one time I longed for a CNC router to cut my metal,.....ended up with a table saw, hand air shear, No space, and in the time it would have taken for the learning curve I had my parts cut out. If you are going into production for kits etc, probably would be worthwhile. Also if your design is truly unique in than it needs the 3D printed parts ....well then great. The 3D printed drone is interesting but remember scale effects in that scaled up that material would probably be too heavy with today's materials. In the future who knows what we will have.....certainly it will take some time to filter down to our level in price, as for example the laser cindered metal parts,.. We need innovators to move this ahead, but right now it is not here as regard the light 3D printed aircraft. The typical Tupperware kayak is pretty close to the material they use in 3D printers though so for boats it looks like we are here, but needs more work for aircraft I believe.
     
  8. Sep 22, 2018 #8

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Yes, either a Honey Comb Design or even like that Black RC Wing would work for a Part 103 Ultralight. Think of the 3D Printed part as just the Skin and Wing Ribs. The Aluminium Spars and other Aluminium Wing Parts is what Bears the most Loads. The Wing Rib Area would be 3D Printed Thicker. The Wing Sections only need to be about 54" Long, Front to Back and about 7" High, and depeding on 3D Printer Table Spec's each Wing Section ideallly 1' to 2' Wide.

    Something like this 2D Drawing. You could 3D Print the Spar Tube Holes, probably even add a Storage Area or Fuel Tank. Holes for Electrical, etc.
     

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  9. Sep 22, 2018 #9

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    The Alulinium Spars and Cross Tubes/Cables is what Bears most of the Loads. Most Tube & Fabric Ultralight Wings use .058 Wall Tubing for Ribs with Plastic Tips at both ends just Rivetted to the Spars. These 3D Printed Wing Panels(Skin & Ribs) would be one Solid Piece, I would think much Stronger. Your going to still use the same Aluminium Spars and Cross Tubes/Cables in what ever Design you use. I personally don't like Cables, I would use Tubes.

    Here is an Average USA Part 103 Ultralight Wing. They used Cables for Tension, I would use Tubes. Most Wings use 1.0" Tubes .065".
     

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  10. Sep 22, 2018 #10

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    My Point was, some of these CNC Large Router Frames are fairly Cheap $2,200, or you could Build one yourself from Kits/Plans that are out there even Cheaper. Most People don't have a lot of Space, so the Machine could be made to be Universl, a CNC Router, CNC Plasma, CNC 3D Printer, CNC Laser, CNC Gasket/Vynil Cutter/Ectcher, etc. You only need to change the Tool Head. That 3D Printer Attachment was $500. So $2,700 for a Combo Router and Large Scale 3D printer. A New Set of Wing Sails isn't Cheap. There is already 3D Printer materials out that would meet these Needs for an Ultralight Wing.

    I don't know the difference in all the different 3D Material Weighs, but the Part I had 3D Printed was lighter than same part in Aluminium. Once the Panels are drawn into CAD and you choose the 3D Printer material you want to use it will give you the Weight. For an Ultralight Wing you wouldn't have to get to Technical. For maybe a Larger, Faster Kitplane you would.

    Look at the Quickie(Q1) 120+mph and Q2/Q200 180+mph, Foam & Fiberglass with just a Carbon Spar. You could use same Type Panels with Holes for a Carbon Spar, maybe inject the Foam if needed and Epoxy Glue/Bolt/Rivet it all together, end resault one Solid Wing. Thinner and less Wide then a Ultralight Wing. You could probably 3D Print the whole plane in Sections like that Kayak.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  11. Sep 22, 2018 #11

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    3D Printing Materials: The Pros and Cons of Each Type
    https://www.tomsguide.com/us/3d-printing-materials,news-24392.html

    Ultimate 3D Printing Materials Guide
    https://www.simplify3d.com/support/materials-guide/

    3D Printer Calculator
    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:29310/attribution_is_important

    1kg = 2.20462lbs

    So what does just (2) Conventional Tube & Fabric Ultralight Wings really Weigh? Any Examples?

    Could we not 3D Print are own Carbon Fiber Wheels, Instrument Panels, Battery Holders, and maybe some other Parts for an Ultralight!

    I would really like to see a 2 Stroke Engine Case 3D Printed out of this. The Engine Case see's less than 200F. Nylon Melts at 500F, I don't know what this New 3D Carbon Stuff Melts at. Use Steel Threaded Inserts.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  12. Sep 22, 2018 #12

    pictsidhe

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    I think the wall thickness of 3D printing is currently too thick for wnig skins. A quick google and I see peolle mentioning around 1mm. For an ultralight with fuselage, that would be somewhere around 100lb just for skin. You'd need ribs, bulkheads, spars etc, etc, etc on top of that.
     
  13. Sep 22, 2018 #13

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    I'm sure it would take some thinking on the Design. With 3D Printed parts for a Tube & Fabric Type Ultralight, your using a thin Skin with Ribs Area Printed into the Design. Most Tube & Fabric Ultralight Wings don't really use Bulkheads. You have the Option to use Light Carbon Fiber Tube Spars over the Standard Aluminium Spars.

    Average Tube & Fabric Ultralight Wing with Ribs Spaced about every 18" and a RC 3D printed Wing. On the 3D Printed Wing Panel would you even need the Ribs, would the Hallowed out inside like these be strong enough? Like on this Hallow RC Wing, if those 1st and 3rd Bulkheads were made Wide enough in the Middle to make the 2" Avg Spar Holes in the middle of each Section I think it could be made fairly light for a Part 103 Ultralight. Each Plane Design will have it's own Hurdles to over come. Many of these Old Designs can be put on a Diet with other Lighter made parts. Kitplanes, don't have the Weight Restrictions Ultralights face.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  14. Sep 22, 2018 #14

    pictsidhe

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    In this case, the hurdle is that the machines can't print fine enough. You need a lighter skin. The printing may be useful for ribs.
     
  15. Sep 22, 2018 #15

    Armilite

    Armilite

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  16. Sep 22, 2018 #16

    FritzW

    FritzW

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    The only problem with an "all in one" CNC machine is you'll have to be able to swap out the bed for the different processes you want to use. It'd be easy enough to do, it's just something to consider when your building the machine.

    You'll probably have an MDF spoil board when you're using the router or a laser on wood, maybe an aluminum 'T slot' table to make life easier for routing/milling big aluminum parts, some sort of catch pan if your going to use flood cooling for steel/aluminum parts, a steel grate for plasma cutting and a heated bed for 3D printing. The tables could be easily swapable, bolt on modules.

    Random thoughts:

    You can print VERY thin sections with a 3D printer (~ 0.008" if you use a 0.2mm nozzle, ~0.016" with a typical 0.4mm nozzle)

    The learning curve for CNC and the software isn't really an issue, it's just like learning to use any other tool. ...and you only have to learn it once. The "time ROI" is short. If your an avid hobbyist, and I think a lot of HBA'ers are, for every 10 hours of learning how to use the machine you probably save 1000 hours of tedious shop time making parts that you don't enjoy making by hand.

    The thought that a CNC machine "isn't worth it" if you're just making a one off part is ridiculous. 'One off' parts is where the machine pays for itself.

    Example:

    I needed a mounting plate to hold a large part in my little lathe chuck and the mounting bolt holes had to be perfect.

    20180523_204636_resized.jpg 20180523_211008_resized.jpg This thing went from "idea" to "finished part" in about a tenth the time it would have taken to make it with a drill press and bandsaw.
     
  17. Sep 25, 2018 #17

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Yes, I agree on you thoughts. There are some Combo Units out now like Router/Vynil Cutter, but you can add other Attachments, like a 3D Printer Head, Plasma Head, etc. Swapping out Beds would be no problem. I'm not up fully on the 3D printing yet, but from what I've Designed and had done, I'm Impressed with it. A Conventional Tube & Fabric Wing isn't Smooth either, and the 3D Printed Parts I have had done are Smooth enough. That 3D Printer Adapter kit for a Router was only $500, which allows you to have a Large Scale 3D Printer. Opens a lot of doors for things you could make at Home. With a Larger Print Envelope, Instrument Panel, Seat, Gas Tank, Wing Tank, Wheels, etc. It's almost unlimited what ever you can dream up as New Materials become available.
     
  18. Sep 25, 2018 #18

    FritzW

    FritzW

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    Heated print beds are pretty cheap. Put several of them together and cover them with a piece of glass and you could have very affordable, very large print bed.

    Something to consider on a combo unit: the breakout board (BoB) would be different for the different functions (unless they make a combo breakout board, ...which I've never heard of). ie. a BoB for a router wouldn't be able to control the extruder and heated print bed on a 3D printer.

    BoBs are cheap also, so you could have one for each machine function and switch to pick which one one you wanted to use.
     
  19. Sep 25, 2018 #19

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    I suppose you could CNC an entire aeroplane from billet. You might want to call around the local scrap metal places and see who will give you the best price on the swarf.
     
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  20. Sep 25, 2018 #20

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    The Kit comes with the Electronics. As with the Router you can use Wood Bits or Bits for Aluminium & Plastics. I drew my part in the Free www.emachineshop.com CAD and exported it as a STL file for 3D Printing. You can use one of the many Free 3D Printer Programs to view it, and get Print Times and Amount of Material needed, I used CURA. A Honey Comb Wing would Probably be the Best choice. If I can get a consensess on what is the best Airfoil to use for a Part 103 Ulyalight. I would like to get it into CAD and see what it really weighs out of different Materails. At the very least a 3D Printed Wing Airfoil Rib.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-PRINTER...344287?hash=item41acf0eb5f:g:z34AAOSwNuxXbzls

    I like this Hollow Design, only I would make some Bigger Holes for the 2" OD Tube Spars Front & Back. The Front of the Wing could be made more Hollow also.
     

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