Closest thing to an all metal F1

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TFF

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In the early years, an RV3 and a MM would have been a wash to build. They both would have been scratch. Under that one reason, I would pick the MM. RV today is a whole different animal. Coming to flying and probably cockpit space, an RV3 is probably a Cadillac. When sitting in the cockpit, you don’t notice the wings or the paint job; you notice flying. That is where VanG won the race. Most of the style that you can fit in and don’t need to be an astronaut to fly. The details can be washed away. I had a friend with two RV3s. His and his wife’s. That’s how they traveled. He did not build either, but his had a turtle deck not a bubble. It was pretty cool. The other was a better made plane, but not as cool.
 

C.D. Donald

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I've considered the very same question. And so far as to ask Sonex if they'd consider a F1 version of the Onex. At least I'd fit into a Onex...

A race prepped O-200 wouldn't be too heavy (about 200 lbs), so it would really be a matter of the wing.
 

Pops

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I've considered the very same question. And so far as to ask Sonex if they'd consider a F1 version of the Onex. At least I'd fit into a Onex...

A race prepped O-200 wouldn't be too heavy (about 200 lbs), so it would really be a matter of the wing.
200 lbs is about right on. Old friend of mine in Columbus, OH used to build race 0-200's. They even sounded good at idle.
 

Ardent

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I’m not a big fella, 5’10 170, most of them work for me.
 

Ardent

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That is where VanG won the race. Most of the style that you can fit in and don’t need to be an astronaut to fly.
Curiously enough, for my personal uses those are strikes on the RV-3. I’m a heli pilot by profession, flying a lot of AS350. I’m spoiled with a 270 degrees a second roll rate, and 1/8” control inputs and appreciate them very much, all with zero intrinsic stability. The Astar, and most multi bladed helicopters are like balancing a baseball bat on your hand, you forget you’re doing it but the pilot is the stability augmentation system, there’s no built in stability; it just wants to roll on its back while yawing and punch in if you let go.

Whenever I get in my fixed wings after a heli shift I’m astonished at the lack of response from the controls, it’s an almost uneasy feeling for the first five minutes having such heavily damped inputs, and the aircraft doing things on its own like leveling the wings after a disturbance. In this thought, about the little all metal Formula 1-esque options out there, a firecracker with sharp and light controls, and low stability is what I’m dreaming of. I’ve had a Wilga, and have a Murphy, flown the Cessnas, Beaver, Caravan etc and I’m keen to get a little rocket that’s affordable and put the fun and spice back in fixed wing.

Don’t take this as me talking tough or that I’d be any match in aerobatics for a RV-3 pilot who knows what they’re about in that regard. But I want a very quick commuter, heavy on the sport light on the practicality, that fits under the wing of my floatplane in the hangar. I’m basically looking for the 600cc sportbike of airplanes.
 

TFF

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I agree on the S1. Race planes somewhat try and dampen out the roll. Rolling is drag and drag is slower. I’m not say they roll slow, I’m saying if it was for aerobatics, they would ramp it up. Been trying to work out the bugs in this for the last two weeks. 0A8719EF-8F96-4DC9-9E3B-F3D1133737F0.jpeg
 

Ardent

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I’m not a biplane guy, they’ve just never grabbed my heart (clearly my deficiency, not the planes’), but dollar for dollar it’s hard to argue with that recommendation.
 

Creighton

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Curiously enough, for my personal uses those are strikes on the RV-3. I’m a heli pilot by profession, flying a lot of AS350. I’m spoiled with a 270 degrees a second roll rate, and 1/8” control inputs and appreciate them very much, all with zero intrinsic stability. The Astar, and most multi bladed helicopters are like balancing a baseball bat on your hand, you forget you’re doing it but the pilot is the stability augmentation system, there’s no built in stability; it just wants to roll on its back while yawing and punch in if you let go.

Whenever I get in my fixed wings after a heli shift I’m astonished at the lack of response from the controls, it’s an almost uneasy feeling for the first five minutes having such heavily damped inputs, and the aircraft doing things on its own like leveling the wings after a disturbance. In this thought, about the little all metal Formula 1-esque options out there, a firecracker with sharp and light controls, and low stability is what I’m dreaming of. I’ve had a Wilga, and have a Murphy, flown the Cessnas, Beaver, Caravan etc and I’m keen to get a little rocket that’s affordable and put the fun and spice back in fixed wing.

Don’t take this as me talking tough or that I’d be any match in aerobatics for a RV-3 pilot who knows what they’re about in that regard. But I want a very quick commuter, heavy on the sport light on the practicality, that fits under the wing of my floatplane in the hangar. I’m basically looking for the 600cc sportbike of airplanes.
My CassuTT is that fun Airplane. Its such a blast to fly. buzz around to 4 other airports at 200+ grab saturday breakfast then top is off with 5.7 gallons.
 

thjakits

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" In this thought, about the little all metal Formula 1-esque options out there, a firecracker with sharp and light controls, and low stability is what I’m dreaming of. I’ve had a Wilga, and have a Murphy, flown the Cessnas, Beaver, Caravan etc and I’m keen to get a little rocket that’s affordable and put the fun and spice back in fixed wing. "

- it won't be a Metal Single... - what you want is something like a Glassair III....

Like you - my main ride is a 350B3 - I got a ride in a extremely nice Glassair III - also got my hands on the stick for a few minutes and basically - you got your helicopter sensibility (....well, a little more stable)!

Roll - just like in a helicopter - "apply pressure only" to the controls and around you go!
I don't have much time in fixed wing, but this Glassair III was the closest to a helicopter I got to ride in... - point it to where you want to go and it goes straight there. Most all airplanes will fly a little nose up and you can see/feel it - but the G III goes exactly where you point it - loops, no sweat - you really can fly it with helicopter sensibility and accuracy...

thjakits
 

TurbAero

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It’s not all metal but it seems that the discussion is straying into non-all metal options. It’s not available right now but my team is developing a Lightning Bug inspired single seater. It will offer either a low performance (180 - 190ktas) Rotax912 variant or a high performance turbine (TurbAero) variant (200+ a lot ktas). The 120hp Jabiru 3300 powered fully-fixed gear original Bug we have in Australia tops out at just over 200ktas and cruises comfortably and economically at 185ktas. The new-build ones will have the retractable nosegear as per the original Bug.

You can see details of the project at my Lightning Bug Facebook page Lightning Bug. There is a video of the control responsiveness of our original Bug N44XM, as well as some video of stall sequences and some cloud surfing. If fingertip sensitivity and crisp control input is what you seek, then the Bug can be like that. The new-build Bug is still a way off yet, but we hope to accelerate things to have the first one flying later this year.

If you like canards, then the Revelaero single seaters will probably be of interest to you. Canardlover on this forum can answer any questions on those aircraft. Have a look at his thread on this site at Cool new canard design.
 

Ardent

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Thjakits and TurbAero really appreciate the responses.

Glad to hear from another Astar driver who’s put his hands on fixed wing controls. I just finished a night rating in a 172 and it’s a wonderful plane for stability and predictability, but man is it a strange feeling waiting for it to respond to inputs with any authority. Almost feels like it’s half flying itself and you’re along for the ride.

I’m very attached to centreline seating for this dream, I want a skinny little rocket. I could accept a passenger seat but they don’t really fit into CG considerations in the size and power plant range I’m looking at in tandems. I need to commute 150nm legs to the heli job, and bring very little with me, after speed and a fun ride that I can stand back and think looks gorgeous. Plan would be to polish the fuse, paint the wings and nose, it as I love polished metal racers. For the same aesthetics reason I love centreline seating I want a wing platform with some beauty, not a Hersey bar.

A modified Midget Mustang is winning the race of my imagination at this point, maybe with a Rotax 915is instead of the Lycoming. But... it’s all dreams and talk til I buy an engine and cut metal.
 

BJC

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I just finished a night rating in a 172 and it’s a wonderful plane for stability and predictability, but man is it a strange feeling waiting for it to respond to inputs with any authority. Almost feels like it’s half flying itself and you’re along for the ride.
That is why most of us fly E-AB aircraft.
A modified Midget Mustang is winning the race of my imagination at this point,
Love the MM. Do you need IFR capability for your commute?


BJC
 

JCupp

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What’s the closest O-200’able all metal design to a Formula 1 air racer?

Midget / Long Mustang definitely jumps immediately to mind. RV-3 on the big end, though too heavy. The Hummel H5, requires far too many modifications, but has the general shape with a lower canopy.

Not trying to build or race for F1, but I love the class, and would really enjoy a polished and modified little plane to get closer to an F1 style build.

Would enjoy hearing thoughts on designs that may fit the concept, with tweaking.
I built a Bushby MM1 in the late 60s. Flew it to Rockford in 68 and 69, from LA Calif area. , talked to Bushby there.
Flew it apx 500 hours. Sold it and the guy wrecked in within a year. It had a Lyc 0290 D2 engine.
Cruised about 180 mph.
.MIDGETMUSTANG.jpg
 
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JCupp

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Taller vertical on a Cassutt? Strictly for aesthetics?


BJC
Taller fin not needed. I rebuilt a barn find in the late 90s. IJackOliviaCassutt-300x200.jpgt's original name was Ole Yaller, it raced in Reno once as far as I know. Found it at Williams Airport northern Arizona. Sold it in 2009 after flying 200 hours. Now it's wasting away in storage someplace in Phoenix. My N number was N669JC, Original was N 580A. I had to change the number because it had to to be lic as a new homebuilt.View attachment 108556View attachment 108556 Picture below as original racer in the 60s. Reno I think.
 
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BJC

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Taller vertical on a Cassutt? Strictly for aesthetics?
Taller fin not needed.
I agree; that is why I questioned the statement. I think that the statement (since edited) intended to refer to Rivets, not a Cassutt. I don’t know about Rivets, but I have done multiple turn spins in a Cassutt, in both directions, with immediate recovery upon applying recovery rudder.

It tracked straight on takeoff and landing, with a 3” diameter X 3/4” hard rubber, steerable tailwheel.


BJC
 

thjakits

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Thjakits and TurbAero really appreciate the responses.

... Glad to hear from another Astar driver who’s put his hands on fixed wing controls. I just finished a night rating in a 172 and it’s a wonderful plane for stability and predictability, but man is it a strange feeling waiting for it to respond to inputs with any authority. Almost feels like it’s half flying itself and you’re along for the ride....
AS350 is of course a extra-lively helicopter....
172 - I think that's the whole idea about the xx2 series - Trim and when in trouble - let go! The plane will sort itself out!! For many a plank driver it IS difficult to adapt to the helicopter! I have that case right now in the company - about 3k hours in all kinds of fast jets, autopilot, FL49, etc... When he flies a R44 it takes ages for him to react, IF he reacts!! It seems it's a plank thing to wait WHAT something does and then react. In the helo we feel the onset of something happening and react basically to it happening...

thjakits
 
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