# Cheap aircraft are simply impossible? :(

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#### Little Scrapper

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Ok. (1) The last sentence in the report says "The CAA said that they appreciate the passion and skills of Fayaz and would provide him with the required guidance to achieve more expertise in the field."
(2) look at those wings and tell me they are going to produce lift.
Angle of attack and horsepower? Lol

#### Marc Zeitlin

##### Exalted Grand Poobah
(2) look at those wings and tell me they are going to produce lift.
OK - those wings will produce lift. They will stall at a relatively low AOA, and they'll have a lot of drag, but pretty much anything at an AOA will produce lift. Stick your hand out of your car window and angle it upward a bit - does the relative airflow push your hand up? Is your hand, held sideways, shaped like an airfoil? No, mine either, but yet...

flat plate wing

and let us know what you find. Also, take a look at figure 4.36 in this discussion:

Clearly lift producing.

There may be multitudinous issues with the man's airplane - without knowing more about it, I certainly can't say. But not being able to produce lift isn't one of them.

#### nerobro

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
OK - those wings will produce lift. *snip*
flat plate wing
*snip*
There may be multitudinous issues with the man's airplane - without knowing more about it, I certainly can't say. But not being able to produce lift isn't one of them.
A maximum lift coefficient of 0.5 on wings that small, with a sharp low angle of stall borders on "no lift". Sometimes the practical answer is more useful than the technical answer. That's to say, you're not wrong, just... it's still not going to fly, and if it does fly, it's going to be vicious, nasty, and fast.

HBA Supporter
LOL

#### Tench745

I thought it was interesting, I was reading an article from Flying magazine earlier today. I'm not certain the age of the article as I found it in an archive online, but it was saying that in the 60's a homebuilt aircraft took an average of 3000hrs to build and cost an average of $10,000 to complete. At the time of writing the average was 1000hrs to build and "10 to 20 times that cost," substituting money for time. The author did not go on to say whether this was a good or bad trend, but I thought it was interesting and worth sharing here. #### MadRocketScientist ##### Well-Known Member I thought it was interesting, I was reading an article from Flying magazine earlier today. I'm not certain the age of the article as I found it in an archive online, but it was saying that in the 60's a homebuilt aircraft took an average of 3000hrs to build and cost an average of$10,000 to complete. At the time of writing the average was 1000hrs to build and "10 to 20 times that cost," substituting money for time. The author did not go on to say whether this was a good or bad trend, but I thought it was interesting and worth sharing here.
Much of that extra cost is certainly due to inflation. The shorter build time could be good or bad depending on ow much you enjoy building.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Much of that extra cost is certainly due to inflation. The shorter build time could be good or bad depending on ow much you enjoy building.
The “average” homebuilt in the 1960’s was nothing like the majority of HBA today. 4130 steel tubing was purchased from surplus outlets. Wheels and brakes were salvaged from wrecked certificated aircraft. The instrument panel consisted of salvaged AS, ALT, compass, and oil temp / pressure gauges. Very few had any electrical; they were strictly day VFR. Comparing them to today’s HBA is not realistic.

But yes, new airplanes today, E-AB and Type Certificated alike, are expensive.

BJC

##### Well-Known Member
The “average” homebuilt in the 1960’s was nothing like the majority of HBA today. 4130 steel tubing was purchased from surplus outlets. Wheels and brakes were salvaged from wrecked certificated aircraft. The instrument panel consisted of salvaged AS, ALT, compass, and oil temp / pressure gauges. Very few had any electrical; they were strictly day VFR. Comparing them to today’s HBA is not realistic.

But yes, new airplanes today, E-AB and Type Certificated alike, are expensive.

BJC
It would be interesting to do an apples to apples comparison with an aircraft built the same way as an old one.

HBA Supporter

#### Himat

##### Well-Known Member
Agree.

$1000 in 1974 inflates, in the USA, to$4160 today. That doesn’t come close to accounting for the total cost increase.

BJC
Do you then use the CPI as inflator?

You may reach a different number closer to todays actual cost if you use the M2 monetary inflation as inflator.

(Rant, CPI is not a measure of inflation if the old definition of inflation is used. Inflation was once defined as the increase in volume of money.)

HBA Supporter

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#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member
The manufacturing is a variable we can choose to manage though.

The lowrider/MPCNC are sub 500$cnc routers, there's some skill involved in learning to operate and program - but retired means you do have time to learn. Carbon fiber (stranded) PETG filaments for 3d printing makes strong structural and bits and pieces very economically. A intro course at the college to fusion360 is 200$ and will get you somewhere between airplane and engine design basics, with some FEA understanding.

Look at fritzw's designs for jigs and build assists for his ranger design - 2000for a fancy wing jig alignment table or 200 in printed parts and fasteners? It just requires a little rethink in how you approach the issue.

You can pay 1000$/hr machine time + retail wood cost for a kit to have it kitted for you, or spend a bit and be able to manufacture at home... We're in an era where we should be able to do a lot more ourselves than ever before if we would just buckle down and learn it.. #### Victor Bravo ##### Well-Known Member The Aeromax Fuselage kit is$5,000.00 USD which includes hardware machined for you. Landing gear, covering kit.. Most charge extra for all that.
So I find it very reasonable.
Like putting a puzzle together being lazer cut, and hardare machined.
Thank you for participating on this forum.

\$5,000 for a pre-fab fuselage kit... including landing gear, covering, and machined parts... is very reasonable for someone who prefers or needs all of that work and material done for him/her. For someone on an oppressively tight budget that may be more than they can pay, but all that means is that a pre-fab kit is not right for them and they need to be scratchbuilding.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Does anyone in retirement want to go out and earn more money just to buy a new airplane?
Earning more money is mostly a course of action that an individual can (or did) make to affect his ability to have or rent an airplane.
The real issue is that cost of manufacturing of aircraft is excessive, they are not injury proof.
Other than whine, there is not much that an individual can do about current costs.

BJC

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