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Cheap air racing class to promote aviation?

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RJW

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What will the actual firewall forward weight be, ready to fly?
I’ve posted numbers on HBA time and time again about car motors and nobody seems to believe them. Or most seem to think that it makes good economic sense to increase the cost of a given amount of power by 1000% to save 20% in installed weight. Seems you can show math and motors on scales or component weight breakdowns until the cows come home without effect. That’s why I thought the picture might have more (some) impact.

Anyway, the motor in my hands weighs 140 pounds. If someone were interested I’m sure they could come up with a reasonable FWF weight estimate in whatever configuration.

Rob
 

BJC

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If you think racing RC pylon racers is non-competitive, then you still don't understand. Even bicycle racing is competitive.The rules for Formula V include a minimum wing span, I assume for safety.The logic of my suggestion was engines that are less proven than VW, (and less power to be cheaper)need to be installed on airframes with larger wings than 16 feet ( for safety).The Quickie 500 class was exciting, competitive and cheap. All with large wings.I guess your last comment was a safe air race won't draw a crowd.
Taking them one at a time:

I didn't include slot cars, RC cars, boats or airplanes, because I thought that the discussion was about racing where the racer is actually in motion. So you are correct, if you are equating racing vehicles via remote control to racer-on-board racing, I don't understand.

Yes bicycle racing is competitive. Priced a good racing bike lately?

Formula V does not have a minimum wing span. See Formula V airframe & engine rules

Where can I go see a Quickie 500 class race? I'm not familiar with that.

Is there a history of a cheap and safe air race series that is successful?


BJC
 

BBerson

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Taking them one at a time:

I didn't include slot cars, RC cars, boats or airplanes, because I thought that the discussion was about racing where the racer is actually in motion. So you are correct, if you are equating racing vehicles via remote control to racer-on-board racing, I don't understand.

Yes bicycle racing is competitive. Priced a good racing bike lately?

Formula V does not have a minimum wing span. See Formula V airframe & engine rules

Where can I go see a Quickie 500 class race? I'm not familiar with that.

Is there a history of a cheap and safe air race series that is successful?


BJC
If your position is that all racing can never be cheap (even foot racing) than why post on this thread?

Yea you are right, the maximum wing span rule should be changed to minimum wingspan for cheap and safe racing class.

I don't know if they do Quickie 500 anywhere anymore. Try searching AMA website or contact your local RC club.

edit- we have a group here that does indoor pylon racing with identicle planes.
similar to these: http://www.motionrc.com/micro-and-mini-planes/
 
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BJC

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If your position is that all racing can never be cheap (even foot racing) than why post on this thread?
That is a good question that I asked myself recently.

I guess the reason is that this forum area is called hangar flying and just like face-to-face hangar flying, opinions are acceptable, even if they are not in agreement with the proposition being discussed.

Will you be at the Arlington fly-in next summer? I'd prefer to do my hangar flying over a beer. I'll buy the first round for you and any other regular HBA posters.


BJC
 

BBerson

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I’ve posted numbers on HBA time and time again about car motors and nobody seems to believe them. Or most seem to think that it makes good economic sense to increase the cost of a given amount of power by 1000% to save 20% in installed weight. Seems you can show math and motors on scales or component weight breakdowns until the cows come home without effect. That’s why I thought the picture might have more (some) impact.

Anyway, the motor in my hands weighs 140 pounds. If someone were interested I’m sure they could come up with a reasonable FWF weight estimate in whatever configuration.

Rob
OK, that compares with 116.4 pounds for a 1600-1800 VW long block listed in the Great Plains catalog.
I don't know what the cooling system weighs exactly.
 

BBerson

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Will you be at the Arlington fly-in next summer? I'd prefer to do my hangar flying over a beer. I'll buy the first round for you and any other regular HBA posters.


BJC
I'll be there. Probably volunteering at the ultralight end.
See you there. Will you fly the Biplane from Florida?
 

autoreply

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I’ve posted numbers on HBA time and time again about car motors and nobody seems to believe them. Or most seem to think that it makes good economic sense to increase the cost of a given amount of power by 1000% to save 20% in installed weight. Seems you can show math and motors on scales or component weight breakdowns until the cows come home without effect. That’s why I thought the picture might have more (some) impact.

Anyway, the motor in my hands weighs 140 pounds. If someone were interested I’m sure they could come up with a reasonable FWF weight estimate in whatever configuration.

Rob
By the time you have a flying package (even if it's overweight) it'll be as heavy as a VW, have less power and be as expensive if not more expensive. It all sounds so simple... until you actually try it out. Been there, done that.

Same thing for designing a "cheap" plane, do a bit of math, aero, controls, build a few control surface and canopy, smack engine on it and presto, here's our cheap great plane.
 

Highplains

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Re: quickie 500 race - you just missed one in Florida that happened last weekend. Next big one is in Phoenix, mid January. Quickie has two classes currently, AMA 424 with a low power sport engine (TT-40) about 1 hp. resulting in 125 mph, and AMA 426 with the Jett Engineering engine (about 2 1/2 hp.) pushing the speeds into the 150-160 mph range. The engine output power was detuned 3 or 4 years back to drop speeds to make a larger step to the Q40 (AMA 422) class that push the 190++ mph racers. These can do 10 laps of a quarter mile course from a standing start in under a minute. Very competitive with 4 plane heats.

NMPRA.org is one source of info
 

BJC

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I'll be there. Probably volunteering at the ultralight end.
See you there. Will you fly the Biplane from Florida?
I plan to fly the Sportsman 2+2 from Florida. Will probably park and camp across the field at Glasair Aviation.


BJC
 

BJC

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Re: quickie 500 race - you just missed one in Florida that happened last weekend. Next big one is in Phoenix, mid January. Quickie has two classes currently, AMA 424 with a low power sport engine (TT-40) about 1 hp. resulting in 125 mph, and AMA 426 with the Jett Engineering engine (about 2 1/2 hp.) pushing the speeds into the 150-160 mph range. The engine output power was detuned 3 or 4 years back to drop speeds to make a larger step to the Q40 (AMA 422) class that push the 190++ mph racers. These can do 10 laps of a quarter mile course from a standing start in under a minute. Very competitive with 4 plane heats.

NMPRA.org is one source of info
Thanks.


BJC
 

Hot Wings

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Yes bicycle racing is competitive. Priced a good racing bike lately?
Interesting comparison! It's been a long time since I considered myself even remotely capable of being competitive in bicycle racing but the good pro level bike back then still cost around 4X that needed for a high end recreational bike. Way out of my price range at the time. But I and my brother could be very competitive with an off the shelf Italian frame with mid range Japanese components. Until you got to the upper levels the bike really made very little difference, and we rode in hills a lot. It was the rider and his conditioning that was the largest factor. We were never in good enough shape to take advantage of the last few grams that expensive titanium parts had to offer. Just to make up a number, I'd have to guess that less than 10% of the riders that buy the high end racing bikes would be able to demonstrate significantly different times than when riding a good quality mass produced mount.

There was an extra bit of satisfaction waiting at the finish line for the rich guy riding the all Campagnolo bike with high dollar silk sew ups when your bike was fitted with $5 gumwall clinchers and Suntour components!

The same kind of thing will/should apply to inexpensive air racing, in whatever form it takes. Craft the rules so that a good flyer/mechanic can occasionally be in the top spots with a well prepared, but otherwise less optimized aircraft.
 

bmcj

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So, a scaled up Quickie 500 race plane it is then!

origq500.jpg


Oh wait... wouldn't that make it a Volksplane?

Volksplane-VP-2.jpg
 

BBerson

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So, a scaled up Quickie 500 race plane it is then!

View attachment 36770


Oh wait... wouldn't that make it a Volksplane?

View attachment 36771
Exactly.
You could get rid of the struts and open cockpit and make it go somewhat faster. But it doesn't really matter what the actual top speed of the class is as long as everybody has the same wing span and area and engine.
That is the essence of Quickie 500. (I think wing thickness, also)
 

Pops

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Exactly.
You could get rid of the struts and open cockpit and make it go somewhat faster. But it doesn't really matter what the actual top speed of the class is as long as everybody has the same wing span and area and engine.
That is the essence of Quickie 500. (I think wing thickness, also)
I don't like socialize racing. That is why when I was contest flying RC, I loved "Open Pylon" . Doing 10 laps in under a minute is fast and takes a lot of practice.
Same thing when in auto drag racing and they went to Bracket racing, I quit.
Dan
 
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Pops

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OK, that compares with 116.4 pounds for a 1600-1800 VW long block listed in the Great Plains catalog.
I don't know what the cooling system weighs exactly.

Great plains has it 100% correct for a VW long block. I have weighed 2 of my VW engines. My firewall forward weight for my 1835 cc, 60 HP, VW engine is 141 lbs and I could save a couple pounds because of my thicker than need be, SS exhaust stacks and SS intake manifold. I could go to a 2180 + cc , 80 hp by just adding 2 pounds. Working on building a flywheel drive 2180 cc at this time.
 

Autodidact

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By the time you have a flying package (even if it's overweight) it'll be as heavy as a VW, have less power and be as expensive if not more expensive. It all sounds so simple... until you actually try it out. Been there, done that.

Same thing for designing a "cheap" plane, do a bit of math, aero, controls, build a few control surface and canopy, smack engine on it and presto, here's our cheap great plane.
People do build cheap airplanes, though. I don't think it is governed by absolutes; it depends on the complexity of the conversion, and of the airframe, which in turn depends on the type of flying. A Corvair engine, converted by Pietenpols original method would cost a couple hundred dollars above the purchase price (provided it needed no rebuild, a time that is past now...); that same method (essentially bolting a prop to the crank flange) could be done to a more modern auto engine. The Verhees delta? It would depend on the selection of the right materials, configuration, and components. You've been there and done that, but not done everything that can be done, possibly because you have no interest in a Pietenpol or such. I, on the other hand have done nothing, but can see what others have done, and therefore don't understand why you are so in-optimistic about this idea.
 

autoreply

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People do build cheap airplanes, though. I don't think it is governed by absolutes; it depends on the complexity of the conversion, and of the airframe, which in turn depends on the type of flying. A Corvair engine, converted by Pietenpols original method would cost a couple hundred dollars above the purchase price (provided it needed no rebuild, a time that is past now...); that same method (essentially bolting a prop to the crank flange) could be done to a more modern auto engine. The Verhees delta? It would depend on the selection of the right materials, configuration, and components. You've been there and done that, but not done everything that can be done, possibly because you have no interest in a Pietenpol or such. I, on the other hand have done nothing, but can see what others have done, and therefore don't understand why you are so in-optimistic about this idea.
Because I figure in all of the cost, unlike many enthousiasts that don't figure in much of the conversion cost, or have some needed parts in stock or can scrounge them.

If you have a lathe, can work with it and happen to have most of the raw materials in stock, sure a conversion might be affordable if you don't include those cost.

The market says the same thing, year after year there are dozens of new engines presented (Friedrichshafen, Salon, Ila), with great promises of more affordability by going a bit smaller. Not a single one of those has survived to date... simply because the economics don't work.

Dreaming with a rose-colored perception is one thing, having all business cases in the real economy fail being another. That's reality I'm afraid :depressed
 

BBerson

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I don't like socialize racing. That is why when I was contest flying RC, I loved "Open Pylon" . Doing 10 laps in under a minute is fast and takes a lot of practice.
Same thing when in auto drag racing and they went to Bracket racing, I quit.
Dan
Sorry, I don't know what is meant by "socialize racing or Bracket racing." Or Open pylon.
 
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