Certificated to experimental

Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum

Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

rv7charlie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
1,889
Location
Pocahontas MS
I hate to do this, but I'll tell you what I consider to be the weirdest interpretation *by the FAA* of the rule. You can't carry people or persons for hire in certified a/c, either, under part 91. But you *can* supply a certified a/c and pilot *for money* to a pro photographer who is taking aerial photographs *for money*.
 

rv7charlie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
1,889
Location
Pocahontas MS
I think the FAA limits competition for EA-B instructor checkout authorizations, examiners and DAR's.
*That* brings up my biggest gripe about the 'system'. Not that they limit the number of examiners and DARs, but that they allow them at all. Our tax money pays for the service, and DPE & DAR programs force us to pay *again* for the service. How would you feel if your city contracted out some of their fire service, and when you called for fire response, they told you that they were too busy at the moment, but you can call ACME Fire PuterOuter and they will come to your house for a fee?

If FAA feels they can save money by using temp labor for high load periods, then fine, but the fee should be out of the FAA's pocket; not mine.
 

Mark Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
791
Location
Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
You can’t find anyone in the FAA to take responsibility so they send a DAR when a field approval is desired.
However we have a great FAA rep, from the MIDO, who inspects our RV 12s and enjoys the opportunity to help the students. We really have a great relationship. Hopefully his office will get less COVID concerned and let him come see us. I’m hoping in March.
 

12notes

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
1,237
Location
Louisville, KY
But not in a homebuilt. In a Restricted category a/c (an ag plane, for instance) yes, but in a homebuilt, no. Unless you can talk the FSDO into forgetting that line in their boilerplate...
91.309 says "civil aircraft", and I couldn't find where I thought banner towing was banned for E-AB, but I finally found it, it's not in the FARs, but in an order.

Order 8130.2G section 4104, Issuance of Experimental Amateur-Built Operating Limitations.
"...20) This aircraft must not be used for glider towing, banner towing, or intentional parachute jumping. "

There is an exception for E-LSA planes, but not E-AB.
 

rv7charlie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
1,889
Location
Pocahontas MS
Ah... yes. I cut/pasted it from a previous draft of the message, and it must have grabbed the other garbage & embedded it within the hyperlink. If you do a plain copy of the characters in the link (instead of clicking on it), and then paste them into the URL line of a new browser page, it will take you to the right place. I'll try to go back and edit the link.
 

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,298
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
I agree that there are things about the rule that don't *seem* to make sense. But when you start to wrap your head around what the rule specifically says, it's a bit easier. In that example, you're not 'carrying persons or property *for hire*'. If you travel to a meeting in your a/c, and take a fellow employee along, *and you aren't reimbursed for the flight*, it's legal. But if your company pays you for the travel, then the FAA will likely see part of that reimbursement as payment for carrying a 'person for hire' (your fellow employee).

The general legal tentacles for these kinds of issues extend far outside aviation. My former employer (a gubmnt agency) eventually got so strict that they were refusing to reimburse automobile mileage if any non-employee was in the vehicle for the trip, because the gubmnt got sued when an employee (and his ride-along spouse) were in an accident while on an agency trip, and they tried to hold the gubmnt responsible for the wife's injuries.
Are there any good threads here on the subject
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,726
Location
Upper midwest in a house
Are there any good threads here on the subject
Attorney Kent Jackson has published some books on enforcement actions, case law, FAR interpretations, etc. Much easier reading than buying a Westlaw account and trying to decipher case law.
Cases that are appealed to the NTSB can be searched and read on the NTSB website. Only a small percentage of enforcement cases are appealed to the NTSB, i.e., usually the one's that involve certificate revocation.
There are some pro pilot forums on the interwebz that have very detailed FAR discussions. The caveat is the further you get away from direct sources, more heresay gets picked up and dilutes the information. Someone may start with a published legal opinion and despite good intentions the discussion ends up pretty far out in the weeds.
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
15,435
Location
Memphis, TN
Taking a photographer to take pictures is under part 119. 119 is the first portal for commercial flights. It’s kind of set up like a checklist. If you want to fly passengers it tells you see 135 or 121 for more fun. If you want to fly a crop duster or long line, it directs you to those FARs. If you don’t fit into any of the full chapter FARs,119 gives you a list that you use 91 rules to fly the commercial operations. Don’t ever tell an FAA inspector you fly commercial 91. They go ape. I did that once, because my boss told me that what he did. I got schooled and had to school my boss. Hard to believe he worked for ten years not knowing what rules, I’m there six months and stepping waist hi in it. I’m just the mechanic. I use to have to keep the new commercial pilots straight because they would try and be helpful, but being helpful broke FARs to the point where they would loose their license.

As for flying in Alaska, their are some very strict and strange rules for aircraft use in the wild. I don’t comprehend them well, but screw up and they take your aircraft. You don’t just hunt or fish out of your airplane; you can’t even help a buddy out if they can’t carry out their game themselves. The wildlife is much more heavily policed than the population.
 

mquinn

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
16
Location
Charlotte, NC
So all these people making YouTube videos (and getting paid for it) on aviation related videos - are profiting from aviation and *should* have a commercial license - and cannot be done with - say a kitfox as it is experimental?
 

mquinn

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
16
Location
Charlotte, NC
OK if I take a wing apart and put it back together it’s just a rebuild and there’s no credit
Wha
What if I take a wing apart and then create a shorter wing from The parts I now have on hand?
What if I take a wing apart and build a longer wing from the parts I have on hand and extra parts I have to create?
What if I take a wing apart and use those parts as a pattern to create new parts and then build a wing from them?
Per my understanding the ONLY way that you get "credit" towards your experimental 51% is option #4 "What if I take a wing apart and use those parts as a pattern to create new parts and then build a wing from them?" as you are making new parts and not "refurbishing" them...
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,726
Location
Upper midwest in a house
So all these people making YouTube videos (and getting paid for it) on aviation related videos - are profiting from aviation and *should* have a commercial license - and cannot be done with - say a kitfox as it is experimental?
There's a difference between Bob going out and while flying taking pictures or videos and later profiting from those pictures by whatever means vs. operating a business called "Bob's Aerial Photography." In the latter the aircraft is part of the business and subject to commercial operating rules vs being "incidental" to taking pictures while flying.

Front line manager at my FSDO often says: "We like YouTube" (as it sometimes aids enforcement cases). As they say in Latin, Caveat Aviator (or as we hillbillies say Beware Mr. Pilot and don't document your own violations).
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
15,435
Location
Memphis, TN
You can build a 100% copy. How do you build a replica like a GeeBee. Cessnas have been replicated, but in the Cessna world it is worthless because you can’t make money with it, so all that work goes down the drain. There are plenty of stories of people getting away with all sorts of things, but the FAA cracked down on some like the Seabees with the Corvette engines. You can always go what if, but you might be the next target. Not worth scrapping all your time and effort. Same with YouTube videos. Showing experiences is fine as long as the flying is legal in them. The FAA does watch some and have gone headhunting. Just like if you want to race at the Indy 500, there are a set of rules. Pushing the edges of rules is always human nature, but if you cross them, you loose getting to race, and all that money was waisted.
 

Doran Jaffas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
484
There is an exception to a business rule regarding flying commercially.

If you are say an XYZ employee and are paid a salary for being an XYZ employee and have an airplane that let's say Mr or MS would like you to fly them in to get to point a and then back to point b and you are on company time as long as that is not your primary position with the company you can be compensated for that. whether or not you can be compensated for actual use of your airplane is another matter. Here's another one for you.. the company owns an airplane because they want one.. you are again ABC employee paid salary for doing your ABC job. You are a licensed pilot and thoroughly qualified even as an instrument rated pilot in the type of airplane they just happen to own an company time your boss asks you to fly them to know where USA and back again.. I know the answer to this question but I'd like to hear others answers and I know that sounds cheesy... Are you legal to do that?
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
15,435
Location
Memphis, TN
Yes you can. The trick is the IRS vs the ability to share the cost amongst all riding which is FAA. Above my pay grade. There is a group of lawyers that come to my airport once a week. Company plane flown by one of the lawyers. I have known construction companies to hire someone doing XYZ job so they can fly. A friend did it with a King Air. Sometimes you are making so much money it’s worth eating the cost. If you have to nickel and dime it, you are probably better off buying a plane ticket. There was one guy who used his per diem to fly his plane to work. He was being payed to travel, how he traveled was up to him.
 

Mark Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
791
Location
Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
I worked for a major department store as a hired pilot; paid by the company. We made corporate and family trips. I cashed all my checks and went wherever they pointed for whatever reason.
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,726
Location
Upper midwest in a house
If you are say an XYZ employee and are paid a salary for being an XYZ employee and have an airplane that let's say Mr or MS would like you to fly them in to get to point a and then back to point b and you are on company time as long as that is not your primary position with the company you can be compensated for that. whether or not you can be compensated for actual use of your airplane is another matter.
That scenario is tip-toeing on the line between "employee with a plane giving a ride" and "Air Taxi and Commercial Operator." The sticking point is that the pilot is also providing the plane. If the pilot holds a commercial pilot certificate, he would be permitted to accept compensation for the flight but by also providing the plane he becomes and Air Taxi and Commercial Operator. (I can pull up some case law on that later if I get time). It would probably be better if the pilot held a private pilot certificate and he and the passengers were travelling to point 'a' and back to point 'b' in furtherance of the business (common purpose). The devil is in the details and would ultimately determine which side of the line this particular operation falls.

Here's another one for you.. the company owns an airplane because they want one.. you are again ABC employee paid salary for doing your ABC job. You are a licensed pilot and thoroughly qualified even as an instrument rated pilot in the type of airplane they just happen to own an company time your boss asks you to fly them to know where USA and back again.. I know the answer to this question but I'd like to hear others answers and I know that sounds cheesy... Are you legal to do that?
Assuming the pilot holds a commercial pilot certificate, absolutely.
 
Top