Certificated to Experimental Exhibition conversion?

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by BBerson, Apr 27, 2019.

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  1. Apr 27, 2019 #1

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    I was thinking of converting my Standard Category Grob G 109 to Experimental Exhibition Category.
    For the freedom to modify it and to eliminate the Annual inspection by I.A.

    Is this possible? Or easy? Anyone done this?
    The Canada "Owner Maintenance" option is what I really would want but that is only available in Canada.
    I figured converting to Exhibition might be almost as good for me. I understand some flight restrictions, but may not matter to me
     
  2. Apr 27, 2019 #2

    TFF

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    Find a good DAR. In essence because it’s exhibition, you have to exhibit it. You have to take it to be seen. Any other flying is for pilot proficiency only. Probably needs a reason to be changed too like you put a Lycoming 540 on it. http://www.faa-aircraft-certification.com/exhibition-air-racing.html I would think the cost of conversion would equal many years of operating.
     
  3. Apr 27, 2019 #3

    BBerson

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    That's a good link.
    I did fly in an actual airshow once. Doesn't have much use other than flying to sailplane fly-ins as mentioned in that link.
    In storage now, it might not ever fly again. So looking at options.
     
  4. Apr 27, 2019 #4

    TFF

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    I don’t think the exhibition has to be big. It can be pancake breakfasts. I do think it has to be on file at the FSDO that you will attend what. I know yours is a motor glider, but lest say you went off to dinner somewhere and ground looped it, you will have to convince the investigator you were training and not going to dinner. You are still going to be stuck with an A&P doing the condition inspection just like a home built not built by the owner. I don’t think you can sidestep time change parts. It would allow you to develop parts that could replace them. I bet the Reno racers have a go to group of DARs.
     
  5. Apr 27, 2019 #5

    Wanttaja

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    Personally, I think the conversion to Experimental Exhibition will be difficult to obtain. The FAA will need a reason, other than personal preference, for the conversion. What would be different about the Grob that it would justify being exhibited? Their usual examples are air show aircraft or modifications that make the aircraft visually unusual.

    Not saying it CAN'T be done, mind you. Just that the FAA is not prone to act in favor of someone's personal convenience.

    Depending on what changes you plan, you might be able to get it into the Experimental Research and Development or Experimental Market Survey sub-categories. But they do require presenting more of a formal development plan, and usually require converting the aircraft back to Standard at the end.

    And as TFF says, an A&P is still going to have to do the Condition Inspection. You may even still need to show compliance with the Type Certificate (e.g., need an IA) for the aspects of the airplane that are not being modified.

    Are Canadian "Owner Maintenance" aircraft allowed to enter and operate in the US? I wonder whether you could "sell" the airplane to a Canadian holding company and still park it in P.T.?

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  6. Apr 27, 2019 #6

    BBerson

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    I let my I.A. expire last month. Too much renewal hassle to keep doing just for one aircraft in storage.
    My A/P certificate doesn't expire. That's mostly why I would convert it. But not if I would need a DAR, or more hassle with the FAA. Would rather part it out.
     
  7. Apr 27, 2019 #7

    BBerson

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    No, Canadian Owner Maintenance aircraft are not allowed in U.S.A.
    Only approved types also. (they can never let you do what you want, ha ha, even in Canada:))
     
  8. Apr 27, 2019 #8

    TFF

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    What is pushing it over the edge to not just fly as is?
     
  9. Apr 27, 2019 #9

    D Hillberg

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    Nope. You have a standard airworthiness certificate,
    You need a restricted with a special purpose but you'll still need an IA & annual inspections
    Experimental? What mission ? What purpose? None = You still need IA & annual inspections + special limits ans a list of shows to satisfy the FSDO....

    you're stuck bud.
     
  10. Apr 27, 2019 #10

    BBerson

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    It needs a complete restoration/engine overhaul. It would be nice to use non-certified engine parts, instruments, etc, since I don't know if Limbach factory parts are even available. Such as upgrade from 2000cc to 2180 or something.
     
  11. Apr 27, 2019 #11

    BBerson

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    Are you sure?
    91.409 seems to excempt Experimental from the Annual inspection requirement.
     
  12. Apr 27, 2019 #12

    TFF

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    I think you can work around the engine depending on how different it is to a regular VW. I have a friend who restored a plane with an OX-5. There are no new parts. He 337ed substitute parts most of which came from automotive sources. I would rarely say this for anything else, but how close are the parts? Trust me when I say people who should know better keep trying to get me to bend the rules. Most want to sub something different than what came with it. You have a unique situation. Bearings, rings, valves, guides if originally came from the same parts bin and just relabeled for your engine, would probably be considered. Flat out different engine case than a VW would be an automatic no. I would evaluate each part and how it came to be.
     
  13. Apr 27, 2019 #13

    Wanttaja

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    It does, and it depends on the wording of the Operating Limitations you receive. I think what Mr. Hillberg is saying is that your operating limitations will probably require that the *rest* of the airframe remain in compliance with the type certificate.

    That happened to a friend of mine who installed a Chevy V-6 on a 172 and licensed it as Experimental Research and Development. The Cessna still had to have airframe ADs complied with.
    [​IMG]
    Considering the parts availability issues, I wonder if you could talk the FSDO into a Experimental/R&D certificate to develop an alternative engine, followed by an Exp/Exhibition ticket after proof of concept completion?

    Seems like this might be worth a trip to the Seattle FSDO to talk to them. Explain how engine parts aren't available anymore. They have some suggestions. You being an A&P (and until recently with an IA) should reassure them you're not just a wild eyed hand-waver.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  14. Apr 27, 2019 #14

    D Hillberg

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    Sorry but the airframe was in standard category with the limitations applied. It is not amateur built, military or special purpose. Unless you have a specific purpose ie: spraying crops, aerial lift - application , DoD , public service use, Special scientific use, factory demo. Even in "Experimental category" with a standard airworthiness you will still need an IA to sign off the annual. Restricted use, logging/Air tanker. still has standard air worthiness, If it was a military, foreign military or NOT certificated in Standard you might have a shot...

    It would be easier to retake the IA renewal, (a) written test , (b) oral, (c) work list of sign offs , then it is to put a standard category air craft on a special exhibition that will require an IA sign off the secret word is "amateur built".
     
  15. Apr 27, 2019 #15

    D Hillberg

    D Hillberg

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    Orphaned Aircraft that have no factory support or production certificates (dead and gone companies) You are authorized to build or use suitable parts as long as you affix your serial number and submit your production data to the FAA.
    and I heard in the 90s an early four cylinder engine that powered older aircraft is now sold as a generator power plant by Sears & Robbuck . . .
     
  16. Apr 28, 2019 #16

    BBerson

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    Apparently, a standard airworthiness certificate can be exchanged for primary airworthiness certificate for owner maintenance. But I have not found if the owner can do the inspections.

    [5-5. Aircraft Having a Current Standard Airworthiness Certificate (§ 21.184(c)). As provided for under § 21.184(c), an applicant may exchange a current standard airworthiness certificate for a special airworthiness certificate in the primary category if the aircraft
    meets § 21.24(a)(1). Note that conversion from standard to primary categories allows an owner/pilot to perform preventive maintenance. The conversion will be made via STC. To issue a special airworthiness certificate under § 21.184(c), follow the procedures in paragraph 5-2 of this order and the following:

    a. Issue Airworthiness Certificate.

    1. (1) Obtain the standard airworthiness certificate from the applicant.

    2. (2) Advise the applicant that its aircraft cannot be returned to a standard airworthiness
    certificate without showing that it meets all of the requirements for a standard airworthiness certificate as prescribed by the regulations. Such a showing historically has been difficult when an aircraft has remained in a different classification or category for a lengthy period. To facilitate the return to a standard airworthiness certificate, the aircraft records should indicate, among other requirements, that the aircraft has been maintained according to the manufacturer’s instructions, and that any alterations to the aircraft either were removed or approved by the FAA. ]

    (from FAA Order 8130.2J)
     
  17. Apr 28, 2019 #17

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    Still has to be maintained IAW Part 43. Annual inspection by IA.

    This is the reg:

    § 43.1 Applicability.
    (b) This part does not apply to -
    (1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft;

    If the bolded part is true, [which it is] still has to be maintained IAW 43.
     
  18. Apr 28, 2019 #18

    BBerson

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    Yes 43 would still apply for maintenance rules. But 91.409 still dictates the type of inspection, I think.
    For example, 43 applies to Light Sport (other than the 337 form) yet Light Sport are excempt from the annual inspection.

    My understanding is I can still do condition inspections on any Light Sport and any Experimental EA-B if I choose as an A&P.
     
  19. Apr 28, 2019 #19

    D Hillberg

    D Hillberg

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    Special training for A & P Light Sport production Aircraft / Experimental light Sport are issued a Repairmen certificate.
    A Conditional Inspection required annually. A normal A & P won't satisfy the requirements of light sport (they're not NoRmAl)

    Pilots can under their certificate do preventative maintenance ( oil plugs air tires etc.) not annual or conditional inspections.
     
  20. Apr 28, 2019 #20

    BBerson

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    That link in post 2 said Exhibition aircraft must:
    "Aircraft under 800 horsepower must be inspected each year in accordance with an inspection plan that contains the scope and detail of FAR 43 Appendix D. Aircraft of 800 horsepower and above must be inspected in accordance with appropriate military technical publications or manufacturer’s instructions for the aircraft."

    Sounds like a condition inspection to me.
     

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