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Streffpilot

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So lets say a guy wants to use a 2180cc VW engine in his Mini-Max, but would rather assemble it all himself rather than write a check, how would you guys build it?

I assume the case would have to be sent out to get the ForceOne hub installed, other than that, what components would you use?

It would be nice if this thread could basically be a list of "recipes" to build your own 2180 VW engine.

..........POPS???????? :)
 

don january

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I can't speak for Dan and hope he jumps in. At 2180cc the case and jugs are a step (bore and stroke) but first I would look into the crankshaft type and condition. Prop hub should also be considered if machining needs to be done. Will stock Rods be used? and on and on. I like your Idea of having a recipe list set up for forum members on the VW build. Are you wanting to hang that Mini-Max on the prop?:)
 

Vigilant1

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So lets say a guy wants to use a 2180cc VW engine in his Mini-Max, but would rather assemble it all himself rather than write a check, how would you guys build it?

I assume the case would have to be sent out to get the ForceOne hub installed, other than that, what components would you use?

It would be nice if this thread could basically be a list of "recipes" to build your own 2180 VW engine.

..........POPS???????? :)
Well, the simple way is to get everything you need from Great Plains Aircraft Supply. You come let also buy everything from Sonex (Aeroconversions) though you won't have much flexibility in what style engine you build (and some people have been dissatisfied with some of the parts they received or the approach Sonex takes, e.g a shrink fit hub on a 2180 cc engine).
I think the cyl heads are worth some careful consideration no matter where you buy.
 

Hot Wings

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Keep in mind that the long block is only a small part of the equation. Good straight case, good crank and prop hub along with a set of properly prepared heads are pretty well known ingredients of the recipe.

What goes on top of all of this, the cake icing, in the form of baffling, induction, carb heat/carb or EFI, ignition system etc. are all variables that have as much or more impact on the performance and reliability of the engine. Pops has far more aviation VW experience than me. Listen to what he has to say. Watch what he actually does/builds.
 

Pops

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I agree with Vigilant1. There are a lot of junk VW parts on the market and GP's, Hummel Engines has sorted out the junk parts for you. Buy the engine kit or parts from GP's or from Scott at Hummel Engines. GP's book on assembling the engine is very good. With either one you will get the Force-One prop hub that has never had a failure. Lots of shrink fit hub failures on the larger 2180 engines.
I am fortunate in having a top of the line VW only machine shop about 40 miles away that I have been doing business with for 48 years. At one time they had the record setting VW powered draggster. They know what they are doing. They go over all the parts I use and do all the machining. I drop off my case, crank, rods, etc and know everything will be right when I pick them up. They also do mail order.
So you want to buy the parts and build the engine yourself and never built a VW engine before. First order GP's assembly manual. Study it until you understand everything. What engine case to use? New if you can afford it. Then the case will have to be machined for the larger 92 mm pistons and juds. Buy from Scott or GP's and they do the machining. Then when you receive the case you still have to make sure all the oil passages are clean of any metal. The oil passages ways plugs in the case will have to be drilled out and the taped for plugs. Then clean, I use rifle cleaning rods and pads,etc to do the cleaning. Ask Scott or GP's if then will do this if its not the standard thing they do before shipping. So you have a case machined for the Force-One prop hub and case bored for the 92 mm pistons and jugs. Also the case is cleared for the 82 mm stroker crank over the standard 69 mm crank that would be used if building a 1835 cc engine. Now mask off the case of all attach surfaces and spray a very light coat of flat black enamel paint for corrosion.
Using a used Case. It would be a big plus if you knew the history of the case. IF the engine has been ran hard with high temps the case could be non-usable. Look at the center main bearing saddle in the case. IF you can see a ridge in the center that is raised the engine is a very high mileage engine or has been ran hard and hot. IF its just a high mileage engine it can be line bored and oversize O.D. main bearing used. Also main bearing are made of under sized cranks if you use a turned engine crank. Best to use a case from 1971 and up, better oil system. It has 2 oil control pistons and springs, one at the lower front on the driver side and one at the lower rear on the same side. So you see if you try using a used case there is a lot of "IF's". Save your money and buy a new case.
When I was building the SSSC, I first used a 1200 cc 40 HP engine. Found one about 2 miles away for $40. Took it apart and it all measured new with no wear. So it was a very low mileage engine. I went ahead and install all new bearings and had the crank and rods balance with all 4 rods weighing the same, same weight on each end, same distance for the center of each hole in length. New 77 mm pistons ( balance for same weight) and jugs and rebuilt the heads with new valve guides , valves and springs. Same CR on each cylinder,etc. Great smooth running engine.
Next the crank.
 
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Marc W

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Pops, Scott also installed case savers and welded a plate in the end of the block to strengthen it in my 2180cc engine. Is that something you will do in your 2180 flywheel drive?
 

Pops

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Pops, Scott also installed case savers and welded a plate in the end of the block to strengthen it in my 2180cc engine. Is that something you will do in your 2180 flywheel drive?
Yes, forgot to mention that. I sold my 1968 VW Bug powered with a 215 ci Buick V-8 and the buyer included a VW case that was welded behind #3 cylinder and bored for the 92 cc pistons and jugs and cleared for the stroker crank, etc, that he was going to use but decided he wanted the V-8 powered VW. I haven't finished building the engine. Maybe I get it done this winter.
 

Vigilant1

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So lets say a guy wants to use a 2180cc VW engine in his Mini-Max, but would rather assemble it all himself rather than write a check, how would you guys build it?
One of the great things about the VW is the flexibility. 2 cylinder variants; bare-bones single-ignition hand-propped 4 cylinders; "deluxe" large 4 cylinder engines with starters, alternators, beefy front bearing and prop hub; even (high-spirited, temperamental) "thoroughbred" high RPM engines for Formula V racers with blueprinted and precisely balanced parts, exotic cooling methods, etc.

According to the advertisements, Team Minimax is recommending up to a "40 HP, 2 cylinder" engine for the Mini-max. While they don't give a weight, a 4 cylinder 2180cc VW with Force One is going to be heavier than they are recommending, and adding a full electrical system will make matters worse. The lightest VW 4 cylinder engine would be a single-ignition (magnetos, for hand start), flywheel drive, no generator engine, non-stroked (so, no Force One needed). Use Nikasil cylinders for even less weight (and a lot more money--plus some folks have had problems with them). An 1835cc engine like this will give 60 HP., and, as Pops says, it provides great bang for the buck. But, again, it will still apparently be heavier than the MiniMax is designed for.
 

Streffpilot

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One of the great things about the VW is the flexibility. 2 cylinder variants; bare-bones single-ignition hand-propped 4 cylinders; "deluxe" large 4 cylinder engines with starters, alternators, beefy front bearing and prop hub; even (high-spirited, temperamental) "thoroughbred" high RPM engines for Formula V racers with blueprinted and precisely balanced parts, exotic cooling methods, etc.

According to the advertisements, Team Minimax is recommending up to a "40 HP, 2 cylinder" engine for the Mini-max. While they don't give a weight, a 4 cylinder 2180cc VW with Force One is going to be heavier than they are recommending, and adding a full electrical system will make matters worse. The lightest VW 4 cylinder engine would be a single-ignition (magnetos, for hand start), flywheel drive, no generator engine, non-stroked (so, no Force One needed). Use Nikasil cylinders for even less weight (and a lot more money--plus some folks have had problems with them). An 1835cc engine like this will give 60 HP., and, as Pops says, it provides great bang for the buck. But, again, it will still apparently be heavier than the MiniMax is designed for.
While all true, the 1550 V-MAX MiniMax (which is the variant I am building) is built specifically for the 4 banger v-dub.........so since the weight is about the same, why not go 2180 vs 1835?
 

Vigilant1

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While all true, the 1550 V-MAX MiniMax (which is the variant I am building) is built specifically for the 4 banger v-dub.........so since the weight is about the same, why not go 2180 vs 1835?
Ah, okay, that's a different plane. They specify a VW "up to" 50 HP for that model. It would be good to know the actual FWF weight the design can safely accommodate (the larger and smaller VWs weigh about the same (the Force One does add weight), but the starter, another ignition system, etc also add weight. If their structure and weight/balance are built around a hand-propped engine, you will above that weight with full electrics. Even on the 50 HP max, it >could< be an issue of rudder size, etc. Sure, you can work around that by not using the extra HP at low speed (be careful!), but this plane hardly has a "high speed" and tryng to push this design faster will show up more on the fuel guage than the airspeed indicator. The Force One adds cost, weight and a requirement for machine work--it just might be more than is needed for not much payoff.
 

Pops

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Ah, okay, that's a different plane. They specify a VW "up to" 50 HP for that model. It would be good to know the actual FWF weight the design can safely accommodate (the larger and smaller VWs weigh about the same (the Force One does add weight), but the starter, another ignition system, etc also add weight. If their structure and weight/balance are built around a hand-propped engine, you will above that weight with full electrics. Even on the 50 HP max, it >could< be an issue of rudder size, etc. Sure, you can work around that by not using the extra HP at low speed (be careful!), but this plane hardly has a "high speed" and tryng to push this design faster will show up more on the fuel guage than the airspeed indicator. The Force One adds cost, weight and a requirement for machine work--it just might be more than is needed for not much payoff.
The 1835 cc, 60 hp is the recommended engine in the V-Max plans and that is the engine I would use. Non electric and hand prop, can use the shrunk on prop hub for the stock 69 mm crankshaft. GP's simple and low cost mag drive on the flywheel end and a cheaper Slick mag from GP's. ( It's was made for a Cont GPU and the case is turned down a small amount to be same as the Slick Aircraft VW mag. Same internal parts ). Light weight, good reliability, good HP for the cost. No easier engine to had prop. GP's Zenith carb and a Culver wood prop. The 2180 cc engine will cost several hundred dollars more than the 1835 cc engine, different more costly prop hub, different pistons for the stroker crank, larger carb. I do like the Hummel Bird canopy on the Mini-Max's. You will be cruising at 75-80 mph and that is fast enough to go on short trips of a couple hundred miles. Friend of mine would take trips of 400 miles with his 1/2VW powered Mini-Max.
 

Marc W

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The Slick 4220(the mag made for the Cont. GPU) only has 15 degrees of lag. I don't know what GP says about it but Scott Casler doesn't recommend it for hand propping. The Slick 4316 that has 25 degrees of lag is the one recommended for hand starting. People have modified the 4220 to increase the lag. I bought one to experiment with but haven't got to it yet.

I also discovered that Scott may not turn down the mag to fit the Diehl case. The standard 4220 fits on my engine so it looks like Scott opened up the case to fit the 4220.
 

Pops

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The Slick 4220(the mag made for the Cont. GPU) only has 15 degrees of lag. I don't know what GP says about it but Scott Casler doesn't recommend it for hand propping. The Slick 4316 that has 25 degrees of lag is the one recommended for hand starting. People have modified the 4220 to increase the lag. I bought one to experiment with but haven't got to it yet.

I also discovered that Scott may not turn down the mag to fit the Diehl case. The standard 4220 fits on my engine so it looks like Scott opened up the case to fit the 4220.
You are correct. A little filing on the impulse on the Slick 4220 mag will get you more lag. I used the Slick 4316 and aircraft 14 mm plugs on the 1835 cc, VW engine. With the timing at 28 degs and only 15 degs of lag of the 4220 ,that gives you 13 degs of advance for hand propping. Not good.


BTW-- Marc-- did you buy the Thatcher CX4 from a man in Marshalltown, IA ?
 

dino

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Even with the case modifications isn't 2180cc and 80hp+ asking a lot from a type II case? What is 2180cc reliability compared to 1835cc?
 

Pops

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Question-if you wanted a 50 HP, 2500 RPM engine, is that doable with a VW?
I cruise my 1835 cc VW engine at 2650-2700 rpm @ 80 mph. By the fuel burn that is about 32/34 HP. Its in an airframe that will fly with low HP, light weight and lots of wing area. At 2500 rpm the cruise is about 68/70 mph. Same speed as my neighbors C-65 Piet. But the engine doesn't like rpm's below 2500 because its running to cold.
 

Marc W

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Question-if you wanted a 50 HP, 2500 RPM engine, is that doable with a VW?
GPAS dyno tested their 2180cc engine and obtained 76 HP @ 3600 RPM. Based on that info you should be able to easily get 50 HP. @ 2500 RPM. 2180 cc's = 133 ci.

Pop's, I didn't buy that one.
 

N8053H

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GPAS dyno tested their 2180cc engine and obtained 76 HP @ 3600 RPM. Based on that info you should be able to easily get 50 HP. @ 2500 RPM. 2180 cc's = 133 ci.

Pop's, I didn't buy that one.
Dyno's can be manipulated to get numbers that is desired instead of real world numbers. Many engine builders will do this and claim they know some magic when it comes to building engines. When in fact the magic comes from the dyno being manipulated to give desired results. Not saying this is happening here.

So let me ask. If you have an engine that produces 50 hp at 3600 rpm's but you choose to turn it or use it at 3200 rpm's. Do you still have a 50 HP engine?
 
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