# Brutality Today

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#### choppergirl

##### Well-Known Member
Yeah, I like to experiment. What might not be suitable for a full size airplane, might find a use on RC airplanes.

I brought some weird plastic mesh home out of a dumpster at work to see what happens when I laminate it for tear stopping power. Like screen door mesh but bigger holes, that should let the laminate bond to itself on the other side through every hole and won't delaminate like tyvek from the inside. Looks like I need to heat it in an oven up to 300 for more melting together with less air entrapment. But oh yeah, does this black stuff stop the tears dead in their tracks. Into the oven with you...

Maybe the black stuff is a winner, but upgrade or ditch the laminate plastic for an alternative. Or make the plastic black grid already filled in with the same material it's made of, only thinner inside the squares to save weight. Not that it's heavy.

Whatever this is, its new but still imperfect, like mashing peanuts together to get a proto-peanut butter. Some inventions are so daft as to be nothing more than squashing peanuts. I mean, what is a paper clip or a cotter pin, but nothing but a bent piece of little wire. A nail, for that matter...

So yeah, this is completely stupid, but...

A test sandwiched between packing tape produced less favorable results.

The oven experiment was interesting, it made both materials "shrinkydink" but remained flexible... the black pvc mesh in particular... (now thicker per square inch and even harder to tear) maybe less heat and sandwiched between two cookie tins with a weight on top...

What I need for an airplane wing, is some lightweight strong way to fill in the holes... without manufacturing the same grid filled in from scratch. Ideas? I like the laminate idea tho, some other material that has complimentary strengths in other areas the pvc grid material might lack.

I wonder how well it stitched together would hold... maybe high test fishing line? Anyone used that on a plane?

Maybe tomorrow I can set up an inch strip weight test rig (12am).

Further animation weirdness...

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#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member

This little piggy is from 1988.

HBA Supporter
Log Member

#### choppergirl

##### Well-Known Member
Since I have too many airplane projects...

I decided to give one away on Craigslist...

since I literally sat at work and watched another count down on my mobile phone and passed on buying another one for 99 cents, for lack of interest on my part in driving down to FL and loading it up...

If you are of the mindset, that interest in aviation is dying...

and that common people don't still dream of flying...

My inbox has been blowing, blowing, blowing... up...

This is how you promote home built aviation, and get people excited about flying *mike drop*

I see a lot of girls in there... didn't expect that.

"aa aa" in that screen grab turned out to be our very own Derswede...:

FreeBird!!!
Jul 5 at 11:32 AM
aa aa <xxxxxx@reply.craigslist.org>
To: aa0d722fefcf3c0ca76a66e4cbfd47d6@sale.craigslist.org
Whats up, CG? Better get to work on the rest of the fleet, or I will fly the Hawk down your way when I get it finished and attack your airfield!!
Derswede

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#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
You're giving away the Chotias? They're ideal for Dorothy.

#### robertl

##### Well-Known Member
So, how do you find all these airplanes for sale or free. Every time I check out Craigslist, I find a few planes and a bunch of un-related stuff.

#### mcrae0104

##### Armchair Mafia Conspirator
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Even for free, some things are worth less than the price.

#### Lendo

##### Well-Known Member
A good friend of mine, a younger (than I) Pilot, who owns his own 'Carbon Infusion' business, with considerable experience with boats (large Carbon Catamarans 40ft. and racing Catamaranes). as well as a host of other Composite development, has decided to build his own Carbon Cub - in Carbon Infused Flat panels, including the airfoil. Although very smart, his knowledge of Aeronautical Engineering is extremely limited and I help where I can, but his approach is also very DIFFERENT to what most expect and may indeed work - we test the wing to 6 G x 2 Safety Factor, next week. This should prove the strength or otherwise of his approach, but I'm starting to think it may well be a very cheap and easy (and light) way to make an Aircraft.

I have real concerns about getting the airfoil USA 35B at 11.6%, to bend over ribs, however the D nose section will be a separate lay-up piece and attached after the main wing section is glued and clamped into place and he is right there's not a lot of bend in that section of the wing. However Carbon is notoriously hard to bend and I have made other suggestions to eliminate the bending of a finished panel, by keeping some elements separated until the last step. This would require a 2 layer bent over the Ribs (bottom layer of a Top Skin) which will bend easily and a separate overlay of the foam and top layer of Carbon.

I considered eliminating the foam, but had to consider the effect of flexing even with a strut supported wing. However it may just work without the foam, but may also be prone to damage, given the nature of Carbon and maybe something we need to test for.

If you look at the Horizontal and Vertical Tail Elevator and Rudder, their all flat panels, with radius edges. The fuselage panels are flat and can be taped together, the bulkheads an seats can all be flat panels.

Probably one of the big issues in this approach is getting the panels cut to size, as he has a very large CNC router, so this isn't a problem, it should go together like Leggo Blocks. Maybe, just maybe he's onto something - I will let you know.
George

#### Fred in Wisc

##### Well-Known Member
Narfi, I've had that same idea. A stitch and glue plane would be pretty awesome. It's such an easy way to build, and could be really light since a plane wouldn't need as thick of a skin for impact protection as a boat does. Or maybe a hybrid type of thing with an S&G fuselage and a traditional wood wing (with lots of wing area, I'm thinking wood and fabric would still be lighter)

#### choppergirl

##### Well-Known Member
I don't do anything special, I just read through listings, and not very religiously... rather sporadically and randomly, actually... the key is to look at everything nobody sees, and for listings that are mislabeled... and I like to look for ugly ducklings and pariahs... for example, the guys here think an Affordaplane is a poorly designed deathtrap for various technical reasons, in the same way I think a Gee Bee Racer is a death trap (and they would disagree with me).

What that means is, there can be an Affordaplane project here posted for a song, right out in the open, and nobody will touch it, they will poo-poo it and turn up their nose at it, and you can be just like Sir Mix-a-Lot, swoop in and retrieve it. No joke. Maybe you will never finish it. Maybe it is a death trap. But it doesn't matter. Because if you have no plane, and you get a plane, guess what, you got something in your hands now. You're not a dreamer, or a talker any more, or a theorist, or a paper napkin sketch artist. You've got airplane junk in your garage now. Or in my case, right out side my front door 5 feet off my front porch. You're now in the club. You can touch that hardware and see how some things are done. You got something to work with.

Probably the third helpful thing, is to have a lot of eyeballs (friends) watching the net for you that you regularly trade aviation finds and links with... which I do on a constant daily basis with my friends. I'm what you call a noisy sneezer... I stumble across cool aviation links, I sneeze them out to my friends, they find the same, and sneeze what they find back out at me.... all throughout the day. All you have to do is tab trough the Big Video Topic to see me in action.

And cheap plane projects are not rare. There are tons of aircraft projects started by guys, that never got finished, the guys gave up on them, and now they are in their 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's whatever. They may not be listed at all. As such, you are not a thief, you are their last best hope to get whatever they started, ever flying. When you are that, and legitimately that, they will literally shove the plane on you like a last ditch football pass, so that what they started will someday fly.

These unfinished plane projects, they are big, they are bulky, they get in the way of their sons and daughters cleaning out the garage of their parents house they just inherited, to park their bloody KIA in there. Or their dad's hanger, because they just sold it, and the new owner don't want an unfinished Woodhopper plane project in there, it gets in the way of his big shiny metal Cessna Citation. Where does the Woodhopper end up? On Barnstormers for $99 for everyone to see. Who actually gets off her butt to go pick it up? Well, moi, of course. Because that kind of Choppergirl Special is about all the plane I can afford at the time. For$99, I can give it away free on Craigslist, and boom, now 150 new people are suddenly excited as hell about aviation. So suck it, local EAA chapter, I just got more people excited about flying, than you have in the last 10 years!

Plus, I got one more wild card in my own personal deck. I'm rather infamous, for better or worse. And I'm a girl. You give your plane project to me, and you can be sure, I'm going to promote it like crazy and make it famous because I'm a guerilla marketer. I may even do something notorious with it. It could very well end up in the history books for good or bad. You just never know ;-) Today's nutty idea for example is to go for an ultralight flight distance record by towing an extra gas tank behind the plane like a Bell X-1 looking drop tank glider. Is that 103 legal? Dunno. It's not part of the main plane. Let's test it! Will I have another idea tomorrow? Probably.

One hot potato most overlooked, are those two place ultralights derelict in barns that are no longer 103 compliant. Nobody will touch them. But guess what. Nice engine on them. Nice prop. Expensive redrive. I bet they could be chopped or bobbed down to get under 254 or one of the seats thrown off and boom suddenly it at least looks compliant. Or you could moved it from here to Brazil where they are legal. If I had my druthers, I'd buy them all up until I couldn't pack one more onto the farm, then I'd petition the FAA to make them legit 103 again, and be sitting on an empire of planes that just jumped up in desirability. Who doesn't want to take their date on a flight? I'd kill to be able to take my dates flying in a two place - land anywhere on the side of a farmers field hill on a weekday when the world is at work, bust out a picnic blanket under the wing and a picnic basket... after lunch, land on a sandbar, do some swimming or wading around... fly through some clouds on the way home... they'd never forget that date.

I myself know of one local cache of two place ultralights owned by a codger that use to have a school to train people to fly them... now, he flies trikes and is getting way up there in years. Guess where all his school's two placers are, in a barn. Guess who's going to offer to clean them out for him free of charge, so his children and grandchildren aren't burdened with that mess How did I find him? He found me. Because I plaster out my shingle everywhere.

And most importantly, consider everything, even if it's something you never thought of wanting or owning.... esp. when it falls into your lap and is super cheap, or free. It will expand your world. It don't have to say bloody VANS or RANS or whatever on it. Tunnel vision will vastly shrink your choices. Be open to saving an entire range of aircraft out there.

Did I ever dream of wanting this platypus duckbill snout looking thing below? Heck no. But you know what, it was free, and it looks like it flies to me! Wrap it up, I'll take it... and love it, and one day, fly the heck out of it.

Can you believe when I first started out, I was so desperate to get my hands on any airplane, and the aviation community operated from such a paradigm of stingyness, that I was trying to hunt down the likes of C-FFAM buried in a playground?

I grew up surrounded by oceans of obsolete computer equipment - today state of the art, tomorrow junk to gift and trade and barter or even give a whole system (which I often did) to someone starting out - and if something died in it and you needed a video card, harddrive, mouse, power cord, power supply, etc... here, have one, I got 100 more in the barn. My dad brought home tons of computer equipment homeby the pickup truck load, from colleges and businesses upgrading, to keep it out of the dumpsters so it could go to... somebody. Our friends were computer techies who also had a closet or storage shed in their back yard full of old PC cases and motherboard. You trade, you gift each other, you make friends, you even start careers, the hobby expands and flourishes, you all benefit.

Aviation just shocked me... nay, appalled me. It still does, to look at the absurd prices for old junk on Barnstormers... a steep hostile toxic barrier... hoarders... keeping everyone new to the hobby... out... something is wrong with you guysss......

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#### robertl

##### Well-Known Member
Since I last posted, I have actually seen a couple of these deals. I just wasn't looking hard enough ! Keep at it gal, for surly one day, you will be flying your own airplane !

#### Lendo

##### Well-Known Member
Narfi, Yes! very astute of you, we both have Vision Plans from Steve Rahm. Steve is a real Gentleman and had a wealth of experience in Aviation. I assume my friend did initially get the idea from Steve's plans, however he does a lot of flat panel extrusions in his business. For myself I've moved on to a Carbon Tandem (Fighter) designed from scratch, however in the process I evaluated Steve's design and it met all necessary safety, strength and design criteria. I tried unsuccessfully to get Steve to go Carbon, initially with the Spar design without success- now it seems it's happening, with someone else taking over the business.

The biggest attraction for my friend, is the simplicity of the design.

Fred, someone very knowledgeable on HBA suggests a top skin to have a minimum of 3 layers of Glass for Impact resistance. Carbon being much stiffer maybe 2 layers. Leading edge should be more robust - obviously.
George

#### choppergirl

##### Well-Known Member

Breaking out the old pixel paintbrush today,
for some lip gloss for the Poorgirl...

Aviation is Dead or Dying!

Some of the emails with a little more content than basically "I want your plane! Here's my name and number!"

First let me say that you are an awesome inspiration!! The story behind this is so cool!! I am always in the market mindset to learn and try something new ( while setting a strong example for my 13year old son). This is right up my/our Ally. Needless to say, I am very interested in this project. I have good equipment ( a truck and trailer) and good friends ( who helped me last year take down, relocate, and rebuild a greenhouse made of vintage wood and window) to transport this baby to my house in xxxxxxxxx.
I can be reached by email or text at xxxxxxxxx if I happen to be lucky enough to be considered as it's new owner. Crossing my fingers and toes... Thanks for sharing!!!
Sara
Please let me come get the plane, You have something I can really enjoy completing. My dad was a WWII flyer and I used to take flying lessons.
Mike
You are seriously giving this away for free!!!??? I absolutely would love to take her off your hands if so! My daughters name is coincidentally Alice after my late grandmother and I would love to take her off your hands! Please let me know the details. My name is William my apologies for not having said it sooner I got a little excited!
I am very near you on xxxx road. Due to a bad back surgery that left me with an infection in my spine and subsequent treatment and now rods and pins from my hips to my shoulders, I have been forced into retirement at 61, and awaiting permanent disability. I am a pilot and used to own a Mooney M20A (Nxxxxx). My future in flying, what I can afford, is probably something like this. This is not a compromise, it is exciting. I have the skills, equipment, and knowledge to go through this bird and make it like new. It would be great to have a classic piece of our past flying safely again. If you have not committed the aircraft to anyone, I would certainly be interested. I think this is pretty cool that you are giving others this opportunity. Thanks... Joe
Hi i am a licensed airplane mechanic and would love this opportunity to get this plane flying. Im Paul . xxxxxxxxxx. Text me or email and i will get right back with you. Thank you for your time.
Goodafternoon I just wanted to share an idea with you. As a military veteran I think donating to an aircraft museum would be a Huge gesture and act of kindness. We all learn something new everyday, and today I learned about your plane. Flight History is an important part of American History and World History. Why not make a Great Contribution that will be longevity of the Past, Present, and Future? Bryan
i repaired crop dusters in the 70's . i would be honored to take on this build. thanks. Ron
I would love to have alice and restore it so it can fly once again. My name is Jason
I live in XXXXXXXXXX and want to marry the project named Alice!
Me and my son (19yr old) are super interested in vintage aero EVERYTHING and would love to take on this project
Call me or email please
Branon and Ganon
Hi. I know I emailed you before about the u ltralight but after reading your post once again I wanted to let you know I would also be interested in helping out with your other projects. Would love to do it just to learn something new. My grandfather was a jet engine instructor in the air Force for over 30 years ( if family experience plays a role in all this). Just let me know if you need extra hands and might be willing to teach someone a thing or two. When and where.
Thanks again!!
Sara
I am interested in the plans for me and my 2 boys we like fixing up older things so I can teach them how it works interested in all kinds of stuff call or text Gary

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#### narfi

##### Well-Known Member
No I think it is a really big robot with a person inside its core controlling it at the casino.

#### pictsidhe

I saw a laz-air a few days ago. A bargain at $8,000. Ok, it does fly... #### kirbylee ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter I don't do anything special, I just read through listings, and not very religiously... rather sporadically and randomly, actually... the key is to look at everything nobody sees, and for listings that are mislabeled... and I like to look for ugly ducklings and pariahs... for example, the guys here think an Affordaplane is a poorly designed deathtrap for various technical reasons, in the same way I think a Gee Bee Racer is a death trap (and they would disagree with me). What that means is, there can be an Affordaplane project here posted for a song, right out in the open, and nobody will touch it, they will poo-poo it and turn up their nose at it, and you can be just like Sir Mix-a-Lot, swoop in and retrieve it. No joke. Maybe you will never finish it. Maybe it is a death trap. But it doesn't matter. Because if you have no plane, and you get a plane, guess what, you got something in your hands now. You're not a dreamer, or a talker any more, or a theorist, or a paper napkin sketch artist. You've got airplane junk in your garage now. Or in my case, right out side my front door 5 feet off my front porch. You're now in the club. You can touch that hardware and see how some things are done. You got something to work with. Probably the third helpful thing, is to have a lot of eyeballs (friends) watching the net for you that you regularly trade aviation finds and links with... which I do on a constant daily basis with my friends. I'm what you call a noisy sneezer... I stumble across cool aviation links, I sneeze them out to my friends, they find the same, and sneeze what they find back out at me.... all throughout the day. All you have to do is tab trough the Big Video Topic to see me in action. And cheap plane projects are not rare. There are tons of aircraft projects started by guys, that never got finished, the guys gave up on them, and now they are in their 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's whatever. They may not be listed at all. As such, you are not a thief, you are their last best hope to get whatever they started, ever flying. When you are that, and legitimately that, they will literally shove the plane on you like a last ditch football pass, so that what they started will someday fly. These unfinished plane projects, they are big, they are bulky, they get in the way of their sons and daughters cleaning out the garage of their parents house they just inherited, to park their bloody KIA in there. Or their dad's hanger, because they just sold it, and the new owner don't want an unfinished Woodhopper plane project in there, it gets in the way of his big shiny metal Cessna Citation. Where does the Woodhopper end up? On Barnstormers for$99 for everyone to see. Who actually gets off her butt to go pick it up? Well, moi, of course. Because that kind of Choppergirl Special is about all the plane I can afford at the time. For $99, I can give it away free on Craigslist, and boom, now 150 new people are suddenly excited as hell about aviation. So suck it, local EAA chapter, I just got more people excited about flying, than you have in the last 10 years! Plus, I got one more wild card in my own personal deck. I'm rather infamous, for better or worse. And I'm a girl. You give your plane project to me, and you can be sure, I'm going to promote it like crazy and make it famous because I'm a guerilla marketer. I may even do something notorious with it. It could very well end up in the history books for good or bad. You just never know ;-) Today's nutty idea for example is to go for an ultralight flight distance record by towing an extra gas tank behind the plane like a Bell X-1 looking drop tank glider. Is that 103 legal? Dunno. It's not part of the main plane. Let's test it! Will I have another idea tomorrow? Probably. One hot potato most overlooked, are those two place ultralights derelict in barns that are no longer 103 compliant. Nobody will touch them. But guess what. Nice engine on them. Nice prop. Expensive redrive. I bet they could be chopped or bobbed down to get under 254 or one of the seats thrown off and boom suddenly it at least looks compliant. Or you could moved it from here to Brazil where they are legal. If I had my druthers, I'd buy them all up until I couldn't pack one more onto the farm, then I'd petition the FAA to make them legit 103 again, and be sitting on an empire of planes that just jumped up in desirability. Who doesn't want to take their date on a flight? I'd kill to be able to take my dates flying in a two place - land anywhere on the side of a farmers field hill on a weekday when the world is at work, bust out a picnic blanket under the wing and a picnic basket... after lunch, land on a sandbar, do some swimming or wading around... fly through some clouds on the way home... they'd never forget that date. I myself know of one local cache of two place ultralights owned by a codger that use to have a school to train people to fly them... now, he flies trikes and is getting way up there in years. Guess where all his school's two placers are, in a barn. Guess who's going to offer to clean them out for him free of charge, so his children and grandchildren aren't burdened with that mess How did I find him? He found me. Because I plaster out my shingle everywhere. And most importantly, consider everything, even if it's something you never thought of wanting or owning.... esp. when it falls into your lap and is super cheap, or free. It will expand your world. It don't have to say bloody VANS or RANS or whatever on it. Tunnel vision will vastly shrink your choices. Be open to saving an entire range of aircraft out there. Did I ever dream of wanting this platypus duckbill snout looking thing below? Heck no. But you know what, it was free, and it looks like it flies to me! Wrap it up, I'll take it... and love it, and one day, fly the heck out of it. Can you believe when I first started out, I was so desperate to get my hands on any airplane, and the aviation community operated from such a paradigm of stingyness, that I was trying to hunt down the likes of C-FFAM buried in a playground? I grew up surrounded by oceans of obsolete computer equipment - today state of the art, tomorrow junk to gift and trade and barter or even give a whole system (which I often did) to someone starting out - and if something died in it and you needed a video card, harddrive, mouse, power cord, power supply, etc... here, have one, I got 100 more in the barn. My dad brought home tons of computer equipment homeby the pickup truck load, from colleges and businesses upgrading, to keep it out of the dumpsters so it could go to... somebody. Our friends were computer techies who also had a closet or storage shed in their back yard full of old PC cases and motherboard. You trade, you gift each other, you make friends, you even start careers, the hobby expands and flourishes, you all benefit. Aviation just shocked me... nay, appalled me. It still does, to look at the absurd prices for old junk on Barnstormers... a steep hostile toxic barrier... hoarders... keeping everyone new to the hobby... out... something is wrong with you guysss...... i just couldn't figure out what you were writing or why, and finally gave up and quit. you gotta be high #### choppergirl ##### Well-Known Member i just couldn't figure out what you were writing or why, and finally gave up and quit. you gotta be high The$38 Volmer, $99 Woodhopper, and free Poorboy must be hallucinations then. I felt challenged though, so I went to Barnstormers Ultralight section, and in under 120 seconds of just reading down the page (I know, magic rare skill), I found this: EASY RISER HANG GLIDER •$600 • DON'T MISS OUT • New, never flown, lots of documentation included Call for details, I’m done with penpals • Contact Mike Butts - HANGARQUEENS, Broker - located Plymouth, MA United States • Telephone:

another 30 seconds, this:

WEEDHOPPER B • $950 • FOR SALE BY BUILDER • Weedhopper "B" ultralight.<60 hours flight time.Built early 80's,last flown 89 Always hangared. • Contact Tony Reilly, Owner - located Ostrander, OH United States • Telephone: 740-666-1317 • Posted July 26, 2019 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchistReport This Ad I'm only on page 2, I'm not even going to keep going... this is too easy... get your eyes checked. If I can see bargains, so can you. lalala... ok can't resist... BEAVER RX •$1,500 • ACCEPTING OFFERS • beaver rx 521 engine no prop missing main wing i have struts and jury struts • Contact luc LEVASSEUR, Owner - located Timmins, ON Canada • Telephone: 1-705-264-4807 • Posted July 25, 2019 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchistReport This Ad

MX QUICKSILVER • $2,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • orig-84 quick 447 rotax 3blade prop • Contact art mcewen, Owner - located Thompson Falls, MT United States • Telephone: 801 657 0992 • Posted July 22, 2019 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchistReport This Ad Or, mix and match BRAND NEW ULTRALIGHT TRIKE •$900 • FOR SALE TO GOOD HOME • Brand new ultralight trike 1 seater NO MOTOR NO WING 900 FIRM. Text me for pics. 646-248-0445 ny • Contact Michael Sach, Owner - located Staten Island, NY United States • Telephone: 646-248-0445 • Posted June 25, 2019 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchistReport This Ad

and here's your wing....

BUZZARD PPC WING. • $500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • Orange and White, 2004 model, +-50 hrs, Min/ Max 240kg/500kg, Min 50 HP, Made in South Africa. • Contact Raymund Theron, Owner - located Urbana, IL United States • Telephone: 2172022687 • Posted July 6, 2019 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchistReport This Ad All of these are out in the open... right in front of everyones face. I'm not in the market for more planes atm, so yeah, they aren't under$100, but I'm not even trying...

Spend some extra, go with the Kitten for $4500, MS Flight Sim has one in it by default you can practice in, you can't go wrong... MINT J-3 KITTEN •$4,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • Mint condition 14.4 h ttae J-3 Kitten 103 legal powered by Rotax 277 with gsc propeller • Contact Guy Boutin, Owner - located Lachine, QC Canada • Telephone: 514 634 6050 • Fax: 514 634 6050 • Posted July 19, 2019 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchistReport This Ad

~

One thing I learned, is the people that are actually building airplanes non-stop, or flying them non-stop, are not hanging out on this forum. They don't hang out on any internet forums. When I tell them I do, and they should check it out... they are like why? Waste of time. Maybe they login and create an account, look around, realize there is nothing here for them, and leave, and go back to churning out airplanes, or flying every week. They simply have no care or time to dick around with talking about building airplanes or flying airplanes, when they *are* building or flying airplanes.

Find those people, they aren't here on this forum... it's kind of hap hazard... facebook, emails directly, random chance, running into them in person, etc. Those people are way more friendly, and way more generous, and have a shop full of stuff to give you. They have few friends, so if they take a liking to you, boom... they will literally shove stuff your way. That's how I got Plane # 3 for free It's those that have the least, that will give you the most. Because they know all to well the boat you're sailing in. Or they've been in that boat, a long, long time, once upon a time.

Today a local contact offered to take me flying in their Cessna. I didn't ask. They just got back from Oshkosh and started telling me all about it. Wasn't expecting it. It happens a lot though. If I want a plane ride at any time, I got several outstanding offers I can take up on at anytime... flying for free, no airplane ownership required.

Why is price depressed? Because that's no CGS Hawk, nobody knows what it is, and every body was too lazy to do a little research and figure out what it was. Well, except me. Oddly, it said in big letters exactly what it was on the tail, but there was no shot of that in the listing photos. For rock bottom prices, you want to find ads that list it with very vague descriptions such as "ultralight airplane" or "airplane" or "ultralight" or "not sure what this is but"

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#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Does that Kitten come with the pilot?

2