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Briggs vanguard conversions

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TFF

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Every time you bank your plane the oil sensor would kill your engine if the safety was used. It’s not like a generator where you just leave it 8 hours and it will shut down if a problem. In an airplane you might need to choose burning up the motor to save your bacon. You don’t want the engine shutting down without your consent.
 

TiPi

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sorry, banking wouldn't cause the oil level sensor to trip unless you fly with the slip ball off the scale (most industrial engines are good for 20 or 25deg inclination, at full oil level). Side-slipping and steep climbs (or descents) can trip it. NO safety feature that shuts down an engine in flight is a good idea, though.
 

TFF

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Maybe, maybe not. Everything is pretty active in the air. With no true sump, oil will be all over the inside of the crank case. Baffles
for slosh would be nice. Personally, steep turns and climbs and dives Is the purpose of a small sport plane even if you don’t do aerobatics.
 

karmarepair

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My thought: except for the Vegas Carts 625cc engine, the single cylinder engines Armilite was talking about are all splash oiled, and he's talking about running them at 5000 RPM. At that speed, I'm thinking all the oil that used to be in the sump is suspended in the whirling air mass in the crankcase. That's fine; it's coating everything in there, but my theory is that it WILL drop the level in the sump.
 

n3puppy

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And maybe somebody can show us a picture of the cooling tin and a no-kidding look at the CHT of that 460cc single after 10 minutes at 37 HP.
Yeah it would be nice to see head temp data after a 10 minute run at 37HP

With all the Dyno data out there surprised no one has CHT/EGT numbers from the tests
Could help tell how realistic the numbers would be outside the Dyno room.

Would also be interesting to see a full sweep dyno run AFTER the engine is heat soaked running at 37hp for 10 minutes
 

Vigilant1

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Yeah it would be nice to see head temp data after a 10 minute run at 37HP
Heck, it would be nice to see the head itself, esp the exhaust valve seat. And any parts of the exhaust valve that can be found.

With all the Dyno data out there surprised no one has CHT/EGT numbers from the tests
Could help tell how realistic the numbers would be outside the Dyno room.
Lots of "dyno sheets to please," but nobody apparently has time to bolt a square stick of known size to a prop flange and shoot a movie so we can see the RPM (and calculate the power). And the CHT. For 10 minutes or so. Interesting. . . .
NO Engine used on any Airplane is used at MAX FULL POWER continuously, only for takeoff, usually 2-3 min, then throttled back to 75% Power.
Not accurate. Some aircraft engines have a listed "Takeoff Power" that is different from their "Rated power." In other engines, the HP is the same for both, and the engine can be run continuously at that power. In small certified engines, when the takeoff power is different from the available continuous power, the difference is often small (less than 10%).
See this copy of the Lycoming O-235 & O-290 Operator's Manual. Many of the engines list the same HP for takoff as for their rated power.
Here's a similar manual for the Lycoming (L)IO-360. There's no mention of a "takeoff power", etc. It reads, in part: "The (L)IO-360-M1A engine has a rated maximum continuous power of 180 hp at 2700 RPM at standard sea level conditions." Note the use of the word "continuous." People can, and do, run these certified engines at/near sea level, standard day conditions at their full rated power for long periods of time. Sure, most of us throttle back to 75% or so in cruise (it saves fuel and puts less stress on the engine). But it is incorrect to state that no airplane engines are ever asked to put out their full rated HP for extended periods. Many certified engines can do it.
To the point: How much continuous HP will this 460cc air-cooled four-stroke engine produce, and who has done it? for how long? Not in "seasons," but hours.
 
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TiPi

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The Rotax 912 can be run at WOT if between 5,200 and 5,500rpm. I usually climb at WOT (5,270-5,300) from SL to 9,500' (20 min or so) with all temps in the green.
 

poormansairforce

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===========================

I figured that was coming. The Honda/Clone Engines have been dominating Go-Kart Racing for years! They're showing up on more Garden Products and Generators, and other Tools more and more. The only Good Engines Briggs make is the V Twins and there Pricing themselves right out of Business. These Honda/Clone Singles are up to (100mm x 86.5mm) 679.6cc. Most Ultralights and Small Kit Planes have an MTOW of 540 lbs to 660 lbs, where 660 lbs need's only 40.1 hp. A 460 Clone Single with 11.0cr, 34mm Carb, 307 Cam, 40mm/32mm Valves, can make 37.37hp@5000rpm.

View attachment 99445
With BMEPs like that why are these guys building go kart engines when they could be making millions building NASCAR engines???:rolleyes:
 

pictsidhe

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With BMEPs like that why are these guys building go kart engines when they could be making millions building NASCAR engines???:rolleyes:
Oh come on poorman. You should know that the speed industry never, ever, even slightly inflates numbers for marketing purposes. That would be fraud! The Nascar guys are clearly overpaid morons with no clue how to build engines.
 

n3puppy

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To the point: How much continuous HP will this 460cc air-cooled four-stroke engine produce, and who has done it? for how long? Not in "seasons," but hours.
Hard to say for the 460 BUT......
Found a website that shows the Max AND continuous ratings for some of the Honda engines
The Big Block GX390 continuous is about 20% less than max
11.7hp @ 3600 max vs 9.4hp @ 3600 continuous

Since a lot of 420-460 type engines are basically big bore 390's...
Wonder how much more than the 9.4hp of the GX390 any of them have, given the increased heat load they have to get rid of.
 

Vigilant1

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Hard to say for the 460 BUT......
Found a website that shows the Max AND continuous ratings for some of the Honda engines
The Big Block GX390 continuous is about 20% less than max
11.7hp @ 3600 max vs 9.4hp @ 3600 continuous

Since a lot of 420-460 type engines are basically big bore 390's...
Wonder how much more than the 9.4hp of the GX390 any of them have, given the increased heat load they have to get rid of.
Yep, and that's with the benefit of the dedicated fan pushing air past the fins. Remove the fan and we gain a little net HP, but lose the considerable advantage of forced air. An airplane needs considerable airspeed to match the dynamic pressure produced by one of these centrifugal fans. Some people apparently think cooling gets easier if we can depend on ambient airflow in flight rather than the fan-- not necessarily.
 

karmarepair

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From Exian's composite planes Post #14


Check out the TBO ???
This is an interesting engine I'd noticed before.
Gear reduction integrated into a replacement for the stock front cover.
I've emailed them for more details.
It looks to me like it's set up for a pusher installation.

And what appears to include retention of the stock flywheel worries me a little from a torsional standpoint; we've been over this ground several times, but TWO inertial moments on either end of a V-twin crankshaft doesn't seem like a good idea, and the Briggs EFI likely uses the flywheel to sense crank position.
 

Vigilant1

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This is an interesting engine I'd noticed before.
Gear reduction integrated into a replacement for the stock front cover.
I've emailed them for more details.
It looks to me like it's set up for a pusher installation.

And what appears to include retention of the stock flywheel worries me a little from a torsional standpoint; we've been over this ground several times, but TWO inertial moments on either end of a V-twin crankshaft doesn't seem like a good idea, and the Briggs EFI likely uses the flywheel to sense crank position.
Asking a 627cc 4stroke NA air cooled engine to make 35 hp for any length of time is asking for trouble. Just saying...
 

blane.c

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This is an interesting engine I'd noticed before.
Gear reduction integrated into a replacement for the stock front cover.
I've emailed them for more details.
It looks to me like it's set up for a pusher installation.

And what appears to include retention of the stock flywheel worries me a little from a torsional standpoint; we've been over this ground several times, but TWO inertial moments on either end of a V-twin crankshaft doesn't seem like a good idea, and the Briggs EFI likely uses the flywheel to sense crank position.
I am not enamored with the engine but the gear reduction uncouples the prop from the crank?
 

blane.c

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Asking a 627cc 4stroke NA air cooled engine to make 35 hp for any length of time is asking for trouble. Just saying...
Since most of us (it seems) are mostly interested in the 810cc (49ci) but recently some interest has surfaced on the 627cc (38ci), I would think for aviation 35hp out of 39ci is abnormal if it had been designed that way let alone modified. But I would like to know more about it. I am more curious about the 627cc now that I realize Mr. Colomban chose it for the Luciole.
 

Vigilant1

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I am more curious about the 627cc now that I realize Mr. Colomban chose it for the Luciole.
I agree, and think it is a fine engine. Mr Colomban chose to run it direct drive off the flywheel end with a lot of custom parts (to significantly lighten it), and asks it to provide 23 hp. So there's not much in common with this VX 401 installation.
I don't have any firsthand reports of the MC30 performance with the B&S 627, but have heard several folks report that the SD-1 is a more pleasant airplane to fly with something more powerful. As we've talked about frequently, designing a reliable PSRU is a task that has stumped a lot of organizations. Maybe this PSRU is fine. At 4640 RPM , the valves will need helper springs, and (if Kevin Armstrong's experience is any guide) the engine will need a different camshaft, too. And there's no way it will see 1500 hours between overhauls if a significant amount of time is spent at that RPM and output.
 

blane.c

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I agree, and think it is a fine engine. Mr Colomban chose to run it direct drive off the flywheel end with a lot of custom parts (to significantly lighten it), and asks it to provide 23 hp. So there's not much in common with this VX 401 installation.
I don't have any firsthand reports of the MC30 performance with the B&S 627, but have heard several folks report that the SD-1 is a more pleasant airplane to fly with something more powerful. As we've talked about frequently, designing a reliable PSRU is a task that has stumped a lot of organizations. Maybe this PSRU is fine. At 4640 RPM , the valves will need helper springs, and (if Kevin Armstrong's experience is any guide) the engine will need a different camshaft, too. And there's no way it will see 1500 hours between overhauls if a significant amount of time is spent at that RPM and output.
Yes the Polish company literature claims a camshaft, but what concerns me and likely most is were does the heat go? It still has the same cooling fins.
 

blane.c

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One thing about flying apart from the view is the noise, I am not sure I could get accustom to what I am sure would be to me a shriek of sound from something doing 4500 odd RPM when I am used to 1/2 that RPM from the engine and a 1/4 from the prop.
 
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