Briggs vanguard conversions

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Hephaestus, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Nov 6, 2019 #1281

    JohnB

    JohnB

    JohnB

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    I have emailed Ace back and forth several times in the last couple of days and as you can see his drive will work either heads up or down, He did caution to use the larger crank for redrive use due to pulley alignment issue. JohnB
     
  2. Nov 6, 2019 #1282

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

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    Hey John,
    Interesting drive option. After looking at your picture I had a question. What kind of bearing set up does the prop hub ride on? I only see support at one end. It appears from the picture that the hub has the side load of the belt and the gyroscopic and "G" forces imposed by the prop to handle. How do you accomplish this?
    Thank you,
    Neal
     
  3. Nov 7, 2019 #1283

    John Penry-Evans

    John Penry-Evans

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    ------- > The appropriate bearings are used in a separate eccentric shaft housing which is behind the large pulley.
    Calculations where made at the very beginning of the redrive design to ensure long life of these redrives. They have stood up well since 2010.
    Most of our redrives for commercial V-Twins are used for engines in between 23 and 45 hp. We have so many redrive designs now to fit various engines, not only the commercial V-Twins. All seem to be doing just fine for all our customers.
    Usually there is not even a need to change belts, only re-tension them from time to time.
    So the design of the complete redrive and bearings cope with all loads is the answer to your question.
     
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  4. Nov 7, 2019 #1284

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    Neal, JohnB,
    You guys joined HBA relatively recently, here's some background that might be useful. It is just my opinion.
    - The Ace redrive folks chime in here occasionally (often to promote a new product, etc). They claim that their drives have performed well in actual use, I have no reason to doubt that. Some of their customers have also weighed in, and as far as I can recall, all have been satisfied with the products they received from Ace. One particular customer, (user name "Factory-Fit") used his Ace unit on a trike,was very happy with it, and has posted here at HBA to discuss the Ace units.
    - Ace has not offered some of the technical information that users, some with technical backgrounds in drive design or at least a good understanding of the issues, have requested. It's not clear if Ace doesn't actually know these values, or if they just don't want to provide them. Some prospective customers will not pay for a PSRU unless there is evidence that the designer of the PSRU has done analysis of dynamic loadings and has built a unit that accommodates these loads. Ace has said their customers are happy (again--I have no reason to doubt this), but I haven't seen information on the total fleet hours, MTBF, average belt life, etc (admittedly, this info is sparse throughout the homebuilt aviation world).

    -My >opinion< is that thorough analysis and engineering should go into hardware that is sold for aviation use, and that this should be augmented/validated by testing and field experience. If a company "abbreviates" their technical analysis and engineering effort, then the requirement for good data collection and analysis of actual field experience is even more important --anecdotes may not be sufficient here. A lot of people buy airplanes, trikes, etc and don't fly them very much.
    This thread contains some information of possible interest: Redrives for most commercial engines
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  5. Nov 7, 2019 #1285

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    I am one of the techies who didn't get answers I wanted. I did a little reverse engineering from photos instead and I will be building my own redrive as a result.
    Maybe the Ace units would be fine for my project and its huge prop. But they are pricey for a maybe-OK that I would need to analyse and test to be happy with.
     
  6. Nov 7, 2019 #1286

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

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    Thank you for the SITREP,

    Gotta admit I was a little surprised by the answer. As I mentioned in my OP, I am just getting back into flying and am looking at the '61 as a propulsion unit. I am about to attempt the install of an "E" box on this 35hp Marine engine I just got. ( I hope they let NAVY guys use them :) I am a realist and have been down the "what if" road before and so am looking at alternatives in case this turns out to be one of my famous throw the money in the air moments.

    His defensive answer was all I needed to see.

    I have observed that you are one of the prominent members. I look forward to learning more from you as this moves along. Also appreciate the link.

    Regards all,
    Neal
     
  7. Nov 7, 2019 #1287

    JohnB

    JohnB

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    Vigilant, pictdhe,

    Thanks for taking the time to write me of your concerns. I would imagine that John is just protecting his product, Tipi has mentioned that even Briggs doesn't give him all the info he needs/wants. Understandable, if you had a couple of key parameters you could be Ace's competition. Vans isn't gonna send you the Applied Loads for the RV6 to make a sale.
    Ask a car mfg for the code for an ECM and I'll bet the laughter could be heard all the way to Toledo.
    The TV show "How It's Made" generally shows an off limits section of the process that is proprietary there is a reason.
    Started building my RV3 when I was 28, (12th RV to fly) several airplanes later I'm 74,
    my how the time flies.
    Because of the fact that high hour count is hard to come by in Experimental Aviation I have learned thru the School of Hard Knocks that the best you can do is look at the customer base as a whole, satisfaction of customers and product QC. If you have the tools to take the process further great, but most don't. That's what makes Boards like this valuable.
    I installed the 2nd Blanton redrive out of his shop on a Ford V6 and that package was total crap. The Redrive looked like it had been built in Wood Shop. Was short on hp by abt 50, weighed 100# more than advertised and the machine work was crude. This was produced by a Degreed Engineer who's company produced fuel tanks and various PMA'd parts to General Aviation.
    Buyer beware (or at least A ware) LO&SLO John B
     
  8. Nov 7, 2019 #1288

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    JohnB,
    I think you've got the picture. I wouldn't expect Ace to provide info on the mfgr and model number of their bearings, etc so I could reverse engineer their products, but it's a little different to ask for info on the MMOI of the prop it has been designed to handle.
    I think homebuilders should be able to buy and make what they want. Hopefully the info here gives people background info helpful to making an informed choice.

    Oh, Blanton. I'm sure you've got stories. It looked good by the published numbers and the fawning write-ups in magazines.
     
  9. Nov 8, 2019 #1289

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    You have that backwards. Because Ace won't give me the numbers I need to be a customer, I look set to be a competitor instead. I am quite capable of designing my own redrive...
     
  10. Nov 8, 2019 #1290

    JohnB

    JohnB

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    Not backwards I said if you have the tools (knowledge) to take the process further, great. You do, so you can and will, hope you share your findings.

    Anyone is business for themselves has the choice to make decisions that they feel is best for their business, simple as that. Doesn't matter if you agree or not. Doesn't matter if the decision was right or wrong for the business. It's just his decision to give out what he wants to. He doesn't need a reason or have to justify it to anyone.
    Dead horse.
    LO&SLO JohnB
     
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  11. Nov 8, 2019 #1291

    David L. Downey

    David L. Downey

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    I did design my own and Ace happily machined the custom unit for me. I was very happy with their execution (even did one thing backwards...exactly like I designed it!). I have had other things made by them and always happy with the outcome. shipping is pretty high though...India to US?
     
  12. Nov 8, 2019 #1292

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

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    As a customer we get to choose what products and business to utilize as well...
    As a pilot I need RELIABLE information to make the correct decision on the equipment I fly behind. All I asked was a simple question and got an extremely rude response....
    His drive isn't some new technology waiting to change the world. It's a belt drive PRSU. Been around for quite a while.
    I just don't get how a bearing designed to run an air conditioning compressor can handle the loads imposed on it and be reliable.
    He doesn't want to answer, so I (and apparently others) will look at the myriad of other options out there :)
    Regards and fly safe.

    Neal
     
  13. Nov 8, 2019 #1293

    JohnB

    JohnB

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    I agree 100%, Capitalism happily at work.


    As long as I have the pot stirred up (again) and everybody is awake I have a question. I remember seeing a picture several yrs ago of a redrive with the free ends of the crank and driven pulley shafts held together (apart?) with an adjustable yoke and bearing on each end. It was not attached otherwise to the redrive, just floated between the 2 shafts, I assume to handle bending loads. Anybody remember where that was or was I having a bad dream after eating chili too close to bedtime? Does that design feature have any merit? JohnB
    Got out my Stewart Maximizer redrive drawings out yesterday. Interesting design.
     
  14. Nov 8, 2019 #1294

    samyguy

    samyguy

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    Look up J-Bird.com them sell motors and stuff
     
  15. Nov 9, 2019 #1295

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

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  16. Nov 9, 2019 #1296

    Vigilant1

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    Neal,
    Quick, buy a lottery ticket before your luck changes.
    Well, you still have lots of fun projects on this one. Induction, ignition , etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  17. Nov 9, 2019 #1297

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

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    Might be a good idea :)

    Ok, here's where I could use some input...
    This is a fuel injected motor. Has all the hardware including the pump. My only dislike with the factory system is the intake manifold and the computer. I don't know anyone who can hack it to cancel the limp home and give me an adjustable fuel / timing map. Everything else is first rate. In fact I am impressed with the attention to detail and quality appearance.

    For the intake I am thinking of using a VW plenum with a new 2 port throttlebody. this is 993cc so one bank of a 1980cc engine should be a good starting point. Otherwise I can print a new, much less restrictive one out of PEEK. PEEK is expensive, but I don't use anything else on engine parts.

    About the computer, what are your thoughts on using all the factory hardware and replacing the ECU with the SDS unit. Pick ups are all compatible as are the low impedance injectors. I would have to make a harness from the ECU to the SDS but...

    Gotta get a gas tank so I can start this beast up. I'm gonna wait to break it in when I have the prop hooked up. But, I still wanna hear it. :)
     
  18. Nov 9, 2019 #1298

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    I'd also be a bit wary of the stock EFI/ECU, mainly because I can't find out much about the failure modes. I've got to think that the design priorities for an industrial engine are different than for an engine being used for flight (with people aboard).
    There's a lot of talent here at HBA. Hot Wings has done some exploration of the B&S EFI setup as well as working on a Homebuilder-friendly (and economical) EFI system. We also looked at a Megasquirt-based approach in a big thread here awhile back. Ross Farnham (owner of SDS) contributes frequently to the discussions here ("rv6ejguy")and is very generous with his time, he could tell you exactly what would be involved. His aviation systems are open loop and batch injected, I'm not sure if the "lumpy" induction cycle of a V-twin will require special attention when batch injection is used--but he'll know. "jbiplane" lives in Russia, builds "from scratch" 2- and 4-stroke engines and is also designing a low-cost ECU.
    I am not an expert, but if you are looking for smooth sailing to a bulletproof aviation-quality system, working with Ross would be a great first step. OTOH, if you want to be more hands-on yourself or are trying to do this on a tight budget, then you'd probably need to be ready for a lot of experimenting.
    I'll see if I can dig up some links to some of the relatively recent threads.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  19. Nov 9, 2019 #1299

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    Links to some recent small engine EFI discussions/info here on HBA:
    1) Search this thread for "EFI." I think this is where Hot Wings posted a manual on the stock B&S EFI and there was some discussion on it.
    2) "Forum Made EFI? " A thread (7 pages) from about a year ago where some ideas were kicked around.
    3) "Industrial engine electronic management system development - HBA style" -- Hot Wings started this thread (8 pages) as a more tightly-focused offshoot of the thread above.



     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  20. Nov 9, 2019 #1300

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

    Neal Scherm

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    I used Ross' system on a Rotary with an Tracy Crook redrive and the Subie I cobbled together with the C box. I really like his helpful manner and his system is aptly named.. Simple.
    I'll reach out to him and see if he has any experience with this rattletrap. Also where does Hot Wings hang his goggles?

    Thx

    Neal
     

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