Quantcast

Briggs vanguard conversions

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

JohnB

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
71
I have emailed Ace back and forth several times in the last couple of days and as you can see his drive will work either heads up or down, He did caution to use the larger crank for redrive use due to pulley alignment issue. JohnB
 

Neal Scherm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
47
Location
Riverside, CA
------ > Hello. Our red



------- > If it helps anyone, we`ve been making successful redrives for commercial V-Twins since 2010. Also for singles for the smaller 200 cc up to 460 cc. www.aceaviation.co.uk
Anyone can email us for information. info@aceaviation.co.uk
We are a British aero sports company based at Ooty, IndiaView attachment 90108

Hey John,
Interesting drive option. After looking at your picture I had a question. What kind of bearing set up does the prop hub ride on? I only see support at one end. It appears from the picture that the hub has the side load of the belt and the gyroscopic and "G" forces imposed by the prop to handle. How do you accomplish this?
Thank you,
Neal
 

John Penry-Evans

Active Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
43
Location
UK / India
Hey John,
Interesting drive option. After looking at your picture I had a question. What kind of bearing set up does the prop hub ride on? I only see support at one end. It appears from the picture that the hub has the side load of the belt and the gyroscopic and "G" forces imposed by the prop to handle. How do you accomplish this?
Thank you,
Neal
------- > The appropriate bearings are used in a separate eccentric shaft housing which is behind the large pulley.
Calculations where made at the very beginning of the redrive design to ensure long life of these redrives. They have stood up well since 2010.
Most of our redrives for commercial V-Twins are used for engines in between 23 and 45 hp. We have so many redrive designs now to fit various engines, not only the commercial V-Twins. All seem to be doing just fine for all our customers.
Usually there is not even a need to change belts, only re-tension them from time to time.
So the design of the complete redrive and bearings cope with all loads is the answer to your question.
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,145
Location
US
Neal, JohnB,
You guys joined HBA relatively recently, here's some background that might be useful. It is just my opinion.
- The Ace redrive folks chime in here occasionally (often to promote a new product, etc). They claim that their drives have performed well in actual use, I have no reason to doubt that. Some of their customers have also weighed in, and as far as I can recall, all have been satisfied with the products they received from Ace. One particular customer, (user name "Factory-Fit") used his Ace unit on a trike,was very happy with it, and has posted here at HBA to discuss the Ace units.
- Ace has not offered some of the technical information that users, some with technical backgrounds in drive design or at least a good understanding of the issues, have requested. It's not clear if Ace doesn't actually know these values, or if they just don't want to provide them. Some prospective customers will not pay for a PSRU unless there is evidence that the designer of the PSRU has done analysis of dynamic loadings and has built a unit that accommodates these loads. Ace has said their customers are happy (again--I have no reason to doubt this), but I haven't seen information on the total fleet hours, MTBF, average belt life, etc (admittedly, this info is sparse throughout the homebuilt aviation world).

-My >opinion< is that thorough analysis and engineering should go into hardware that is sold for aviation use, and that this should be augmented/validated by testing and field experience. If a company "abbreviates" their technical analysis and engineering effort, then the requirement for good data collection and analysis of actual field experience is even more important --anecdotes may not be sufficient here. A lot of people buy airplanes, trikes, etc and don't fly them very much.
This thread contains some information of possible interest: Redrives for most commercial engines
 
Last edited:

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,542
Location
North Carolina
I am one of the techies who didn't get answers I wanted. I did a little reverse engineering from photos instead and I will be building my own redrive as a result.
Maybe the Ace units would be fine for my project and its huge prop. But they are pricey for a maybe-OK that I would need to analyse and test to be happy with.
 

Neal Scherm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
47
Location
Riverside, CA
Neal, JohnB,
You guys joined HBA relatively recently, here's some background that might be useful. It is just my opinion.
- The Ace redrive folks chime in here occasionally (often to promote a new product, etc). They claim that their drives have performed well in actual use, I have no reason to doubt that. Some of their customers have also weighed in, and as far as I can recall, all have been satisfied with the products they received from Ace. One particular customer, (user name "Factory-Fit") used his Ace unit on a trike,was very happy with it, and has posted here at HBA to discuss the Ace units.
- Ace has not offered some of the technical information that users, some with technical backgrounds in drive design or at least a good understanding of the issues, have requested. It's not clear if Ace doesn't actually know these values, or if they just don't want to provide them. Some prospective customers will not pay for a PSRU unless there is evidence that the designer of the PSRU has done analysis of dynamic loadings and has built a unit that accommodates these loads. Ace has said their customers are happy (again--I have no reason to doubt this), but I haven't seen information on the total fleet hours, MTBF, average belt life, etc (admittedly, this info is sparse throughout the homebuilt aviation world).

-My >opinion< is that thorough analysis and engineering should go into hardware that is sold for aviation use, and that this should be augmented/validated by testing and field experience. If a company "abbreviates" their technical analysis and engineering effort, then the requirement for good data collection and analysis of actual field experience is even more important --anecdotes may not be sufficient here. A lot of people buy airplanes, trikes, etc and don't fly them very much.
This thread contains some information of possible interest: Redrives for most commercial engines
Thank you for the SITREP,

Gotta admit I was a little surprised by the answer. As I mentioned in my OP, I am just getting back into flying and am looking at the '61 as a propulsion unit. I am about to attempt the install of an "E" box on this 35hp Marine engine I just got. ( I hope they let NAVY guys use them :) I am a realist and have been down the "what if" road before and so am looking at alternatives in case this turns out to be one of my famous throw the money in the air moments.

His defensive answer was all I needed to see.

I have observed that you are one of the prominent members. I look forward to learning more from you as this moves along. Also appreciate the link.

Regards all,
Neal
 

JohnB

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
71
Vigilant, pictdhe,

Thanks for taking the time to write me of your concerns. I would imagine that John is just protecting his product, Tipi has mentioned that even Briggs doesn't give him all the info he needs/wants. Understandable, if you had a couple of key parameters you could be Ace's competition. Vans isn't gonna send you the Applied Loads for the RV6 to make a sale.
Ask a car mfg for the code for an ECM and I'll bet the laughter could be heard all the way to Toledo.
The TV show "How It's Made" generally shows an off limits section of the process that is proprietary there is a reason.
Started building my RV3 when I was 28, (12th RV to fly) several airplanes later I'm 74,
my how the time flies.
Because of the fact that high hour count is hard to come by in Experimental Aviation I have learned thru the School of Hard Knocks that the best you can do is look at the customer base as a whole, satisfaction of customers and product QC. If you have the tools to take the process further great, but most don't. That's what makes Boards like this valuable.
I installed the 2nd Blanton redrive out of his shop on a Ford V6 and that package was total crap. The Redrive looked like it had been built in Wood Shop. Was short on hp by abt 50, weighed 100# more than advertised and the machine work was crude. This was produced by a Degreed Engineer who's company produced fuel tanks and various PMA'd parts to General Aviation.
Buyer beware (or at least A ware) LO&SLO John B
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,145
Location
US
JohnB,
I think you've got the picture. I wouldn't expect Ace to provide info on the mfgr and model number of their bearings, etc so I could reverse engineer their products, but it's a little different to ask for info on the MMOI of the prop it has been designed to handle.
I think homebuilders should be able to buy and make what they want. Hopefully the info here gives people background info helpful to making an informed choice.

Oh, Blanton. I'm sure you've got stories. It looked good by the published numbers and the fawning write-ups in magazines.
 

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,542
Location
North Carolina
Vigilant, pictdhe,

Thanks for taking the time to write me of your concerns. I would imagine that John is just protecting his product, Tipi has mentioned that even Briggs doesn't give him all the info he needs/wants. Understandable, if you had a couple of key parameters you could be Ace's competition.
You have that backwards. Because Ace won't give me the numbers I need to be a customer, I look set to be a competitor instead. I am quite capable of designing my own redrive...
 

JohnB

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
71
Not backwards I said if you have the tools (knowledge) to take the process further, great. You do, so you can and will, hope you share your findings.

Anyone is business for themselves has the choice to make decisions that they feel is best for their business, simple as that. Doesn't matter if you agree or not. Doesn't matter if the decision was right or wrong for the business. It's just his decision to give out what he wants to. He doesn't need a reason or have to justify it to anyone.
Dead horse.
LO&SLO JohnB
 

David L. Downey

Active Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2019
Messages
42
I did design my own and Ace happily machined the custom unit for me. I was very happy with their execution (even did one thing backwards...exactly like I designed it!). I have had other things made by them and always happy with the outcome. shipping is pretty high though...India to US?
 

Neal Scherm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
47
Location
Riverside, CA
Not backwards I said if you have the tools (knowledge) to take the process further, great. You do, so you can and will, hope you share your findings.

Anyone is business for themselves has the choice to make decisions that they feel is best for their business, simple as that. Doesn't matter if you agree or not. Doesn't matter if the decision was right or wrong for the business. It's just his decision to give out what he wants to. He doesn't need a reason or have to justify it to anyone.
Dead horse.
LO&SLO JohnB
As a customer we get to choose what products and business to utilize as well...
As a pilot I need RELIABLE information to make the correct decision on the equipment I fly behind. All I asked was a simple question and got an extremely rude response....
His drive isn't some new technology waiting to change the world. It's a belt drive PRSU. Been around for quite a while.
I just don't get how a bearing designed to run an air conditioning compressor can handle the loads imposed on it and be reliable.
He doesn't want to answer, so I (and apparently others) will look at the myriad of other options out there :)
Regards and fly safe.

Neal
 

JohnB

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
71
I agree 100%, Capitalism happily at work.


As long as I have the pot stirred up (again) and everybody is awake I have a question. I remember seeing a picture several yrs ago of a redrive with the free ends of the crank and driven pulley shafts held together (apart?) with an adjustable yoke and bearing on each end. It was not attached otherwise to the redrive, just floated between the 2 shafts, I assume to handle bending loads. Anybody remember where that was or was I having a bad dream after eating chili too close to bedtime? Does that design feature have any merit? JohnB
Got out my Stewart Maximizer redrive drawings out yesterday. Interesting design.
 

Neal Scherm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
47
Location
Riverside, CA
As a customer we get to choose what products and business to utilize as well...
As a pilot I need RELIABLE information to make the correct decision on the equipment I fly behind. All I asked was a simple question and got an extremely rude response....
His drive isn't some new technology waiting to change the world. It's a belt drive PRSU. Been around for quite a while.
I just don't get how a bearing designed to run an air conditioning compressor can handle the loads imposed on it and be reliable.
He doesn't want to answer, so I (and apparently others) will look at the myriad of other options out there :)
Regards and fly safe.


OK,
Question is answered. (Well, maybe it was only my question :) You CAN attach a Rotax B or E gearbox to the 10 degree tapered crank on a B&S 35hp engine or anyother 10degree tapered crank, ie the 20hp motors. I received the gearbox today and the engine I picked up yesterday. I slid the drive gear onto the PTO of the new engine to see if it fit. Well now it will take a mallet strike to get it off LOL.
With locktite per manufacturers spec and a washer/nut, it will take a stick of dynamite to remove it.

Some of my projects have been years in the making. I finally get one where I get parts one day and mount the prop the next. WOW.
I bought a B box first to see if it would fit. I think I want to go with the E box to get rid of the factory starter and flywheels weight. I will remove them for weight and see which is lighter before I order the E. Cool thing about the B is that it is available in 2.0 2.24 and 2.54 ratios more suited to a 4 stroke. I will let you know as soon as I find out.
I have attached a factory schematic. They are quite free with their info it seems. Weight is 9.4 lbs plus a couple of ozs for oil. For a gearbox. For $834 brand new. Did I say WOW.

The gearbox can be mounted upright or inverted and has 72mm (B) and 80mm (E) prop offset.

Fly safe,

Neal




Crank End.jpg b-boxprovision8.jpg
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,145
Location
US
Some of my projects have been years in the making. I finally get one where I get parts one day and mount the prop the next. WOW.
Neal,
Quick, buy a lottery ticket before your luck changes.
Well, you still have lots of fun projects on this one. Induction, ignition , etc.
 
Last edited:

Neal Scherm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
47
Location
Riverside, CA
Neal,
Quick, buy a lottery ticket before your luck changes.
We'll, you still have lots of fun projects on this one. Induction, ignition , etc.

Might be a good idea :)

Ok, here's where I could use some input...
This is a fuel injected motor. Has all the hardware including the pump. My only dislike with the factory system is the intake manifold and the computer. I don't know anyone who can hack it to cancel the limp home and give me an adjustable fuel / timing map. Everything else is first rate. In fact I am impressed with the attention to detail and quality appearance.

For the intake I am thinking of using a VW plenum with a new 2 port throttlebody. this is 993cc so one bank of a 1980cc engine should be a good starting point. Otherwise I can print a new, much less restrictive one out of PEEK. PEEK is expensive, but I don't use anything else on engine parts.

About the computer, what are your thoughts on using all the factory hardware and replacing the ECU with the SDS unit. Pick ups are all compatible as are the low impedance injectors. I would have to make a harness from the ECU to the SDS but...

Gotta get a gas tank so I can start this beast up. I'm gonna wait to break it in when I have the prop hooked up. But, I still wanna hear it. :)
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,145
Location
US
For the intake I am thinking of using a VW plenum with a new 2 port throttlebody. this is 993cc so one bank of a 1980cc engine should be a good starting point. Otherwise I can print a new, much less restrictive one out of PEEK. PEEK is expensive, but I don't use anything else on engine parts.

About the computer, what are your thoughts on using all the factory hardware and replacing the ECU with the SDS unit. Pick ups are all compatible as are the low impedance injectors. I would have to make a harness from the ECU to the SDS but...
I'd also be a bit wary of the stock EFI/ECU, mainly because I can't find out much about the failure modes. I've got to think that the design priorities for an industrial engine are different than for an engine being used for flight (with people aboard).
There's a lot of talent here at HBA. Hot Wings has done some exploration of the B&S EFI setup as well as working on a Homebuilder-friendly (and economical) EFI system. We also looked at a Megasquirt-based approach in a big thread here awhile back. Ross Farnham (owner of SDS) contributes frequently to the discussions here ("rv6ejguy")and is very generous with his time, he could tell you exactly what would be involved. His aviation systems are open loop and batch injected, I'm not sure if the "lumpy" induction cycle of a V-twin will require special attention when batch injection is used--but he'll know. "jbiplane" lives in Russia, builds "from scratch" 2- and 4-stroke engines and is also designing a low-cost ECU.
I am not an expert, but if you are looking for smooth sailing to a bulletproof aviation-quality system, working with Ross would be a great first step. OTOH, if you want to be more hands-on yourself or are trying to do this on a tight budget, then you'd probably need to be ready for a lot of experimenting.
I'll see if I can dig up some links to some of the relatively recent threads.
 
Last edited:

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,145
Location
US
Links to some recent small engine EFI discussions/info here on HBA:
1) Search this thread for "EFI." I think this is where Hot Wings posted a manual on the stock B&S EFI and there was some discussion on it.
2) "Forum Made EFI? " A thread (7 pages) from about a year ago where some ideas were kicked around.
3) "Industrial engine electronic management system development - HBA style" -- Hot Wings started this thread (8 pages) as a more tightly-focused offshoot of the thread above.



 
Last edited:

Neal Scherm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
47
Location
Riverside, CA
I'd also be a bit wary of the stock EFI/ECU, mainly because I can't find out much about the failure modes. I've got to think that the design priorities for an industrial engine are different than for an engine being used for flight (with people aboard).
There's a lot of talent here at HBA. Hot Wings has done some exploration of the B&S EFI setup as well as working on a Homebuilder-friendly (and economical) EFI system. We also looked at a Megasquirt-based approach in a big thread here awhile back. Ross Farnham (owner of SDS) contributes frequently to the discussions here ("rv6ejguy")and is very generous with his time, he could tell you exactly what would be involved. His aviation systems are open loop and batch injected, I'm not sure if the "lumpy" induction cycle of a V-twin will require special attention when batch injection is used--but he'll know. "jbiplane" lives in Russia, builds "from scratch" 2- and 4-stroke engines and is also designing a low-cost ECU.
I am not an expert, but if you are looking for smooth sailing to a bulletproof aviation-quality system, working with Ross would be a great first step. OTOH, if you want to be more hands-on yourself or are trying to do this on a tight budget, then you'd probably need to be ready for a lot of experimenting.
I'll see if I can dig up some links to some of the relatively recent threads.

I used Ross' system on a Rotary with an Tracy Crook redrive and the Subie I cobbled together with the C box. I really like his helpful manner and his system is aptly named.. Simple.
I'll reach out to him and see if he has any experience with this rattletrap. Also where does Hot Wings hang his goggles?

Thx

Neal
 

Latest posts

Top