Briggs vanguard conversions

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Hephaestus, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Jun 12, 2019 at 4:50 AM #441

    Vigilant1

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    If the wrist pins on the vertical 810cc are splash lubricated, I guess if we turn the crankshaft horizontal and cylinders upright we could replicate whatever the oil dipper/slinger setup exists on the horizontal B&S engines. If using a dry sump, then an oil squirter of some kind from the pressure system?
     
  2. Jun 12, 2019 at 5:02 AM #442

    akwrencher

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    I had a one cyl diesel genset when I was 18 that had aftermarket electric start and a crank start. SOP was spin it up and drop the release, even with the electric. Worked great, very simple lever held open a valve and had a spring return. Mounted through the valve cover. Common on old yanmars. Also lets the oil prime before there is any load on the bearings. I would think it wouldn't be too hard to find d a couple and adapt them, and run a choke cable to the panel inside.
     
  3. Jun 12, 2019 at 5:30 AM #443

    BBerson

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    RC models are started with a hand held motor pushed against the spinner. Not practical for a Briggs, but I was thinking of holding the starter firmly in the normal position but without bolts. Just push on some pins, when it starts just remove the starter and go to the next engine and start it. A small lithium battery is taped to the starter with a finger switch.
    Then the starter can go back in baggage. Not a part of FAR 103 weight.
     
  4. Jun 12, 2019 at 2:15 PM #444

    pictsidhe

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    I think I'd rather have a pull starter than faff around like that.
     
  5. Jun 12, 2019 at 2:23 PM #445

    Vigilant1

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    There's at least one Rhinebeck (sp?) pilot who starts his plane with a cordless drill from the cockpit. A driveline with a couple of universal joints goes from there to some sort of spur gear/overrunning ratchet to the flywheel.
     
  6. Jun 12, 2019 at 2:35 PM #446

    Hephaestus

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    Getting heavy and complex ways to eliminate a starter that works fine. ;) I suppose I started it ..
     
  7. Jun 12, 2019 at 3:07 PM #447

    Hot Wings

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    M R S on his CRI CRI build found a source for these. I've not been able to figure out a way to add dual plugs to these heads without welding but there is a nice easy spot to add these devices.

    Don't consider the Ryobi drill driver. Hate mine. Has a worm drive and loosens the chuck every time you stop. Would be a disaster as a starter. Maybe coupling something like the automatic 2 speed transmissions from the gas RC trucks would help here?

    Starting these 'little' motors is more of a challenge than might be first presumed. The gear reduction of the starter/flywheel is already about half of a normal auto and we are still trying to use a direct drive starter. If the engine doesn't hit on the first compression stroke we have to do another full compression cycle to try again. With a V8 there are 7 more attempts and they are getting some assist form the built up un-fired compression on the preceding cylinder.

    Did some looking last night for a source of one piece cams for the 810. Didn't find anything. The built up cam was the only real surprise I found internally. Haven't read about any real world problems with the method so it may be acceptable?

    For those that don't know how an automatic 2 speed R/C trans works - skip to about 3 minutes:
     
  8. Jun 12, 2019 at 3:36 PM #448

    Hephaestus

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  9. Jun 12, 2019 at 3:38 PM #449

    Vigilant1

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    I'll look around online later today, I recall some references to built-up vs one piece stock B&S cams someplace. Maybe have a close look at that Vanguard 810cc teardown/parts video or the Vanguard propaganda to see a picture.
     
  10. Jun 12, 2019 at 5:18 PM #450

    Hot Wings

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    Didn't think THIS would be a problem!!!

    Does anyone know how or where to get a repair/service manual for these 810cc engines? The B+S 272144 manual conveniently leaves out the 49 series.
     
  11. Jun 12, 2019 at 5:26 PM #451

    pictsidhe

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    You want 273521. it covers the 40 and 44 engines, which are the little brothers to the 49.
     
  12. Jun 12, 2019 at 5:36 PM #452

    pictsidhe

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    If you are planning direct drive revs, the standard cam is good for many, many hours.
    Dynocams in NC does a lot of hop up cams for small engines. I bet they could make one for you, once you have an idea of what you need. Which will be after assessing the head flow. Reusing the briggs drive gear would save money, especially if it is different to any cam gears that they already do. Briggs does like to reuse parts that are already designed and work just fine.
     
  13. Jun 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM #453

    Hot Wings

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    Got the flywheel off.
    Some weights:
    Flywheel with magnets = 6820 Gr = 15.0 lbs.
    Stator = 318Gr = 11.2 oz.
    Flywheel tin and fill tube with dipstick - 410 Gr. = .9 lbs

    A reweigh of the completely bare long block = 20360 Gr. = 44.9 pounds

    Edit: Pic starts to load then goes to a broken link icon?

    SANY0018.JPG
     

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  14. Jun 12, 2019 at 8:58 PM #454

    BBerson

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    That is significantly lighter than my Honda FX 670 (bare block with carb and intake manifold and both spark coils is 65 from memory)
    Thanks.
     
  15. Jun 12, 2019 at 9:08 PM #455

    Hot Wings

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    In the process of getting a PDF version. Thanks for the info!
     
  16. Jun 12, 2019 at 9:13 PM #456

    BJC

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    I offer the experience report, below, FYI. The engine is not a B&S, and is is lower HP than being discussed here, but it is a similar design and application.

    I bought a new John Deere mower with a Kawasaki engine last year. https://www.kawasakienginesusa.com/engines/fs/fs600v

    I use 100LL in all my equipment, and have for 10 years, including in another earlier version of the Kawasaki, with zero problems. With about 20 or 25 hours on the engine, I entered cancer treatment, and the engine was not run for 5 or 6 months. When I tried to start it after that idle time, it would not run. Both exhaust valves were stuck, and both exhaust push rods were bent. It was repaired under warranty. The John Deere factory people blamed the stuck valves on the 100LL. I don’t know if that was the cause, or just the scape goat, since the warranty was fully honored.


    BJC
     
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  17. Jun 12, 2019 at 9:21 PM #457

    blane.c

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    I put auto gas in all my airplanes, never had a stuck valve or a bent pushrod. LOL!
     
  18. Jun 12, 2019 at 9:33 PM #458

    Vigilant1

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    I did find this comment on a discussion board. The author wrote a previous post comparing an Intek and a Vanguard V-twin (exact displacement not mentioned). He said the Intek camshaft was built-up, the Vanguard camshaft was one piece. His comments were written 10 years ago, which is quite a long time as these things go (the Vanguard engines were made in Japan then).
    The attached picture is a screen grab of a Vanguard 810cc camshaft. I couldn't see much given the low resolution image.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 9:39 PM
  19. Jun 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM #459

    BBerson

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    Hard to say. Depends if stuck from rust or too tight of a guide to stem fit at installation.
    I don't think 100LL would do much in 25 hours. It tends to "lubricate" the seats actually.
     
  20. Jun 12, 2019 at 10:13 PM #460

    Hot Wings

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    That looks just like the one in my 810. You can't tell it's a built up but it does show the compression release mechanism. The older one piece cams with compression release have a little ball that would protrude from the heel of the exhaust lobe and was then released when the engine was above starting speed. They got phased out for other mechanisms.

    I couldn't find a pic of a V-twin cam via Google and I won't be getting back to my engine for a while. The AV-36 plans arrived today and I've been spending the afternoon ironing them flat. Next is a trip to the copy place and then a lot of hours in front of the CAD screen....and maybe some time with Google translate.:(
     

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