Boxer Diesel Weight

Discussion in 'Subaru' started by flyboyjohn7, Apr 18, 2009.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Aug 14, 2016 #41

    CameronB

    CameronB

    CameronB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    North Florida, West Tennessee
    I liked the idea until I googled Subaru diesel, they had crank issues in the early engines in stock cars! I am not ready to experiment with a poor base. I am a diesel guy 100%, but I can't get on board with the weight difference vs performance vs longevity.
     
  2. Aug 19, 2016 #42

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    170
    Location:
    Jackson
    Some possibly updated info on the Sube diesel here:
    Subaru diesel EE20 aircraft RV-7 - VAF Forums

    One post indicates that there's an updated crank in the newer engines. Also, some indication of already-flying a/c.

    Forgot to add, one post lists weights of various components, as weighed by the person who made the post.

    Charlie
     
  3. Aug 19, 2016 #43

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    3,749
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    There are at least 2 of these flying but I have not seen any performance data, specifically fuel flow vs. TAS, empty weight etc. and of course nobody has any significant flight hours on them yet to see how they stand up.

    People get all excited about aero diesels until all the facts come out about weight, cost, fuel burn, reliability and maintenance in the real world.

    We saw the resident diesel diesel fan on VAF finally own up and tell the truth of his experiences on the WAM. Isn't all roses- mostly just thorns in his case.
     
  4. Aug 20, 2016 #44

    KAF

    KAF

    KAF

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2014
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Missouri
    Ross,

    Do you have a link or something to the WAM guy's experiences, or was it offline?

    Just curious as to what all he ran into with that engine because I was always kind of impressed with it.

    Thanks
     
  5. Aug 20, 2016 #45

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    3,749
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Search on VAF "Continental Diesel" maybe can find it. The basics was he had a loss of cranking compression and the engine went back to the UK for overhaul, stuck rings and scored pistons, then he admitted some cam bolt issues and finally you must now replace the pre-chambers every 50 hours at $750 per set. Not very practical. WAM's website lists some of the SBs. He kept all this secret for years saying everything was great.
     
  6. Sep 19, 2017 #46

    Ron Gandy

    Ron Gandy

    Ron Gandy

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    United Kingdom (England)
    Gentlemen,
    We at CKT Aero Engines Ltd in the United Kingdom have been developing the 2ltr Euro 6 ee20 engine over the last 4 years, and if you would like to visit our website www.cktairoengines.com you can read all about it and see a short video of the testing. We have extensively developed the core engine for aircraft use together with a new gearbox and MT hydraulic 3 blade propeller and FADEC controller. This engine is presently available for experimental but is in the process of certification.

    4 of these engine have been delivered to Bent wing Aviation in Casper WY USA (Our first USA Distributor) for installation in SuperCubs, the first of which will be flying in the next 4 weeks.

    To answer your question on weight, the basic engine is a comparable weight to the Lycoming 360, but remember this is a water cooled engine the needs radiators etc.

    Ron Gandy
    Director/General Manager
    CKT Aero Engines Ltd
     
    BoKu likes this.
  7. Sep 19, 2017 #47

    Grelly

    Grelly

    Grelly

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2010
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
  8. Sep 19, 2017 #48

    tspear

    tspear

    tspear

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    173
    Location:
    Oneida
    Ron,

    Looks interesting. What about pushers? I am thinking of the Velocity V-Twin.
    Also, what are the prices?

    Tim
     
  9. Sep 19, 2017 #49

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    170
    Location:
    Jackson
    Hi Ron,

    It looks really nice in the pics. How about some more details?

    Weight, dry, with all accessories to run except oil & water coolers? (Mount the turbo, intercooler, controller, fuel plumbing, etc & hang it on a scale.)

    Who's controller? Stock Sube, or custom box (if custom, who's?). Electrical power requirements to keep engine running? Is electrical power integrated, or supplied by a typical automotive alternator?

    What injection style, older relatively low pressure, or new extreme pressure common rail? Integral mechanical pump? External supply pump(s) required?

    Who's reduction? Ratio? Spur or planetary? Off-the-shelf sourced gears, or custom? Decoupling (damping) method?

    Engine RPM & MAP at full rated power? How does that compare to the stock rating in the car?

    And... how much will it pain one's pocketbook?

    Thanks,

    Charlie
     
    tspear likes this.
  10. Sep 19, 2017 #50

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    5,328
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    Location:
    Australian
    No, you didn't answer the question.

    It's a **** simple question but absolutely critical in importance to anyone contemplating the fitting of one to their aircraft, and only requiring you to type 3 numbers before a Kg or Lbs symbol.


    "the basic engine is a comparable weight to the Lycoming 360"

    Bollocks. That's British for Bullshot.

    A 0-360 is 290lbs/130kgs (wow, how easy it was to type 3 numbers).

    A stock crate diesel Sub is 175kgs/380lbs.

    You may have removed the cat converter, a smaller alternator, air con and power steer pumps and maybe down to say 150kgs/330lbs, hell lets be generous and give you 140kgs/310lbs, but then you have added turbo, intercooler, associated plumbing, not to mention a PSRU*, and then the water radiator and plumbing.

    As far as I'm concerned innuendo that you are near a Lycoming 0-360 weight is utter bollocks, mis-representation, and I wouldn't go near an engine supplier who can't list every single bit of their products weight to the last clamp, i.e. critical information.

    And Members of this forum know well I am pro-auto conversion.

    *A PSRU on a diesel? Defeats one of the diesels ideal characteristics of the possibility of direct drive.
     
    Monty, BoKu, BJC and 1 other person like this.
  11. Sep 19, 2017 #51

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    170
    Location:
    Jackson
    The weight (and HP claims) are obviously critical.

    PSRU or not is a non-issue for me, as long as *it works*, and its weight included in the engine weight. Reality is that if you want HP & light weight, the engine has to turn faster. And contrary to conventional a/c thinking, there's a fairly low crossover point where the weight of a PSRU-equipped faster turning engine is lighter, *and has lower component loads*, than a direct drive engine.

    Now, claiming that the engine is OK with making roughly 50% more than the power chart I have for the auto-rated power for takeoff, and max continuous is roughly 33% higher than the auto-rating.....Has Subaru upgraded, or enlarged, or...?

    Ron, where are you?



    Crickets.....?
     
  12. Sep 19, 2017 #52

    Mad MAC

    Mad MAC

    Mad MAC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Hamilton New Zealand
    there is a bit of write up in the LAA's mag, slightly different designation, must be at least a couple flying as this has been around for two year. I wish everyone would come up with more original naming schemes for their diesel engines they all seem to be TD something.

    http://www.cktengineering.com/files/The-CKT-240-TSD-Diesel.pdf
     
  13. Sep 20, 2017 #53

    johnnyd

    johnnyd

    johnnyd

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Location:
    Palm Bay, Florida
    As far as the crank breakage issue , Kitplanes magazine had an article about cryogenic treatment of engine components. One of the items was an aerobatic crankshaft failure that was eliminated by cryogenic freezing.
    They can even do complete engines.
    It seems like a pretty amazing process. It's even good for aluminum & electronics.
     
  14. Sep 20, 2017 #54

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,639
    Likes Received:
    3,269
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    I know someone who has been doing it to vacuum tubes for 20 years. Hot Rod Magazine was talking about it on the 80's.
     
  15. Sep 20, 2017 #55

    Monty

    Monty

    Monty

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    478
    Location:
    Fayetteville, AR / USA
    I hear it cures baldness, impotence and bad attitudes!
     
  16. Sep 20, 2017 #56

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    5,328
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    Location:
    Australian

    Thanks "TD" Mac.

    So the engine is 35/80lbs heavier than an 0-360, still do not know the exact weight because we do not know which model 0-360, I used an average 0-360 weight above so somewhere either side of 165kgs/365lbs for the Sub.

    What a croc having to guess an engine's weight for an aircraft.
     
  17. Sep 20, 2017 #57

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    Armchair Mafia Conspirator HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,987
    Likes Received:
    1,986
    Location:
    BDU, BJC
    People were using vacuum tubes in 1997?!
     
  18. Sep 20, 2017 #58

    Ron Gandy

    Ron Gandy

    Ron Gandy

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    United Kingdom (England)
    Hi Tim
    Thank you for your post, we are not a large company 5 people in all and at present we have 2 projects on the go, certification of the existing engine and a direct drive engine which will reduce the weight of the existing engine quite considerably.(this will be an economy fixed prop version) We would like very much to test out a pusher and it is on our to-do list. The existing engine is a full firewall to propeller unit completely wired through to the cockpit, and a FADEC controller. All that is required is fuel lines from the tank and power to the starter. the Price is $75,000 complete with a MT 3 blade hydraulic propeller however we are trying to find an American based propeller manufacturer to replace this for America based sales.
    Ron
     
  19. Sep 20, 2017 #59

    Ron Gandy

    Ron Gandy

    Ron Gandy

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    United Kingdom (England)
    Cut the claptrap and go onto the website where you will find the wet weight of our firewall inclusive engine and propeller, my comment on weight was in response to the question of comparisons of 360 to the Subaru base unit which we receive direct from Subaru without any of the bolt on parts. at that stage both engine are about the same weight. If you are having problems reading and understanding this post please ask your carer to read it to you.
    Ron
     
  20. Sep 20, 2017 #60

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,547
    Likes Received:
    6,318
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Ron:

    Could you provide a link? If the weight is listed, I somehow missed it on two visits to your web site.


    BJC
     

Share This Page

arrow_white