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PiperCruisin

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BTW: We watched "Downfall, the Case Against Boeing" on Netflix last night.
They covered the basics. I thought the best part was when they were interviewing the engineer and he said something to the effect of...Boeing moved their headquarters to Chicago so they didn't have to listen to the engineers.
 

Wanttaja

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They'll be talking about "the Americans" like we talk about "the Greeks", "the Incas", and "the Romans".

Looking down the barrel of history is very depressing.
The tusks which clashed in mighty brawls
Of mastodons, are billiard balls.

The sword of Charlemagne the Just
Is Ferric Oxide, known as rust.

The grizzly bear, whose potent hug,
Was feared by all, is now a rug.

Great Caesar's bust is on the shelf,
And I don't feel so well myself.


- Arthur Guiterman

Ron Wanttaja
 

AdrianS

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The tusks which clashed in mighty brawls
Of mastodons, are billiard balls.

The sword of Charlemagne the Just
Is Ferric Oxide, known as rust.

The grizzly bear, whose potent hug,
Was feared by all, is now a rug.

Great Caesar's bust is on the shelf,
And I don't feel so well myself.


- Arthur Guiterman

Ron Wanttaja

That has a very Ogden Nash feel.

Or maybe Hillair Belloc.
 

AeroER

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and lets not forget the contribution of the enormous stack of "Piled Higher and Deeper"s that are the very life blood of Boeing. Some of them worth their money but most I worked for could not breathe on their own. Completely educated beyond utility. Very bright but knew nothing about real world limitations. Many, many blind tunnels! Cant say how many times I heard them defended by "But they look really good on the proposals" (many of which we did not get!)

An entertaining story -

A bright young new hire on a proprietary program brought a propeller to me for structural integrity analysis.

He was mightily disheartened when I explained to him the thickness at the blade tips was thinner than a single ply of C/E fabric as that dimension was a key feature of his design.

He had to compromise with a multiblade propeller. Eventually the part was put out for bid.
 

proppastie

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blade tips was thinner than a single ply of C/E fabric as that dimension was a key feature of his design.
He had to compromise with a multiblade propeller.
I guess you had to be there.....ok the point that he designed something smaller than a single ply is understandable .....the rest of the story is missing....like what he was trying to do and how did his compromise solve the problem.....and apparently that the part was put out for bid means he was perhaps successful?
 

AeroER

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I guess you had to be there.....ok the point that he designed something smaller than a single ply is understandable .....the rest of the story is missing....like what he was trying to do and how did his compromise solve the problem.....and apparently that the part was put out for bid means he was perhaps successful?

Proprietary program. The rest no one here needs to know.
 

PMD

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Being a metals kind of guy, this begs the question(s):

Were you constrained to one particular size or supplier of CF materials? I just (blindly) assume you could have fabric woven with any dimension of fiber you wanted??

When you say multi-blade, do you mean as in more than one blade or more than one structure with two aerodynamic ends of opposite pitch (i.e. a solid two blade)?
 

AeroER

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No one would specify a custom weave in the normal course of work. Maybe for a specific contracted R&D project that the government wanted to fund.

The selection of materials is huge, but selection comes down to practical producibility. Prototyping will look at low temp cure materials to start, and autoclaved parts as the last resort due to the cost of bond tools and autoclave operation.

The propeller I mentioned changed from two blades, then three, four, and five in search of the best solution that satisfied one measure.
 
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autoreply

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Funny, we had at least one major aerospace customer come in with a rotorblade tip design that was super thin. Last inch or so was less than 0.4 mm thick (0.016"). The tip bent when you blew gently against it...
 
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It’s interesting for myself to hear what others think of Boeing . I worked as a designer for 50 years with Northrop, Rohr, Grumman, Lockheed and finally McD . Each company had their own hi points. Boeing was/is the bottom of the barrel.
executives have little knowledge of aircraft. The idea of producing 787 sub assemblies around the world and assembling an aircraft in 3 days was a prime example, hiring new collage engineers and thinking that they could replace experienced old timers instantly is insane, even my chief engineer turned out to be a real estate expert with little basic engineering skills. The whole emphasis was on speed, not refinement,
john Doe
 

robertbrown

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It’s interesting for myself to hear what others think of Boeing . I worked as a designer for 50 years with Northrop, Rohr, Grumman, Lockheed and finally McD . Each company had their own hi points. Boeing was/is the bottom of the barrel.
executives have little knowledge of aircraft. The idea of producing 787 sub assemblies around the world and assembling an aircraft in 3 days was a prime example, hiring new collage engineers and thinking that they could replace experienced old timers instantly is insane, even my chief engineer turned out to be a real estate expert with little basic engineering skills. The whole emphasis was on speed, not refinement,
john Doe
Replacing experienced employees with new hires to save money on salaries is not peculiar to Boeing. You just need a certain number of man-hours to get the job done and it doesn't matter who you get to fill the positions. You can also get a baby in one month if you put nine women on the program.
 

AeroER

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It’s interesting for myself to hear what others think of Boeing . I worked as a designer for 50 years with Northrop, Rohr, Grumman, Lockheed and finally McD . Each company had their own hi points. Boeing was/is the bottom of the barrel.
executives have little knowledge of aircraft. The idea of producing 787 sub assemblies around the world and assembling an aircraft in 3 days was a prime example, hiring new collage engineers and thinking that they could replace experienced old timers instantly is insane, even my chief engineer turned out to be a real estate expert with little basic engineering skills. The whole emphasis was on speed, not refinement,
john Doe

Around 2019 Boeing hired a corporate engineering head out of the auto industry. His initial opinion was that the engineering staff is interchangeable and he would fix shortages by simply moving people around to fill holes. That didn't last long, I expect one of the execs out of engineering corrected that thinking.

The new quality exec hired about the same time out of the auto industry was equally naive, maybe worse. I think he made his edicts before he visited a shop.

The three day assembly dream of 787 was entertaining. I made a cartoon of a hangar with a big rock for a door just cracked open, and a bubble from a voice inside saying "no, just one more day". Naturally the savages didn't understand the inference.

The chief engineer of the F-18 program has an undergrad degree in law enforcement. She's qualified for reasons other than her capability, and it ain't her legs.
 

proppastie

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When I worked there on the AV8-B prototype McDonnel was still alive and active.....I once saw him alone in the cafeteria late one afternoon looking like a janitor......I was very impressed with the technology and expertise I found way back then.....I was not impressed with the industry as a whole and soon was designing piston ring equipment for another company after the overtime ran out....being an aerospace gypsy following the contracts was not attractive to me......could be the problems are more systematic.
 

AeroER

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When I worked there on the AV8-B prototype McDonnel was still alive and active.....I once saw him alone in the cafeteria late one afternoon looking like a janitor......I was very impressed with the technology and expertise I found way back then.....I was not impressed with the industry as a whole and soon was designing piston ring equipment for another company after the overtime ran out....being an aerospace gypsy following the contracts was not attractive to me......could be the problems are more systematic.

The echoes of the JS McDonnell days were finally snuffed out around 2010 amongst strength guys, but they were choking after 1997.

There are a handful of The Old Practitioners remaining, all in the chicks to retire or die at their desks. A job shopper started in 1962, retired as a direct with 46 years, and came back as soon as possible as he needs the income to support problem offspring. Another is about 90 years old, a shopper as long as I have known him from the early 80's, and has no idea what anyone would do with themself in retirement; has no need for the income. Both are sound of mind, except for their ideas about work.
 

Wanttaja

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Back when I started at Boeing, I worked with several older engineers from the "good old days" of space engineering in the 50s through the 70s. One, Dick Kolesar, had been a P-40 pilot in WWII. I still remember his derisive comeback... "We tried that back on Looney (i.e., "Lunar") Orbiter...it didn't work then, and it ain't gonna work here!"

Not long before I retired, I was in a bull session with a mix of older and younger engineers. I mentioned, "What ever happened to the weird old coots?"

I got SUCH a look from a young engineer.... :)

Ron Wanttaja
 

gtae07

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Not long before I retired, I was in a bull session with a mix of older and younger engineers. I mentioned, "What ever happened to the weird old coots?"
It's an odd feeling when "the kids" start looking at you like one of the "old guys". At least, I certainly don't feel like one of them...

Sooner or later someone is going to have to stop letting 1960s-era stuff get grandfathered in on a further-modded narrow body commercial jet.
The FAA made the rules. See "consequences, unintended".
This is not a new thing with the FAA (really, with government in general, but I'll keep it on topic)... from certification basis, to Light Sport Aircraft, to medical certs, and more... the FAA makes a rule and assumes that people/industry will respond in the way the FAA desires. In reality, people look at the rules and say "how can I get the most advantageous position for myself within these rules?".

For example, with the Light Sport rule the FAA set performance/weight limits some ways above/outside their target aircraft, as they intended and expected the vast majority of LSA's to basically be updated "fat ultralights" with minimal equipment and thus well inside the weight/speed criteria (see this assumption straight from the horse's... er... mouth, in the Federal Register). What actually happened is the majority of LSAs run right up against at least one (if not all) of the performance limits and have a lot of modern gear on them. Rather than being used mainly to train ultralight pilots (as the FAA stated they expected) LSAs are filling the role of substitute aircraft for those who know or suspect they won't be able to get or renew a medical certificate.
 
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